A conundrum

MarineVietnamVet · 12-12-2012, 07:36 AM

My CHL test is this Saturday and I've put 450 rounds through my 238 in preparation with very mixed results. While admittedly a handgun has never been my string suit (I'm much better with a long gun) it's been very frustating.

I know that continued practice is the key and I've been working on all the fundamemtals; sight picture, proper breathing, trigger finger placement, grip, different etc. my groups, although tight, are still consistently low and to the left.

Of course I will keep trying to find the right combination of factors but it disappointing to say the least that so far I've not found that combination.

My wife has a S&W .380 Body Guard that I've never fired so yesterday I decided to put 50 rounds through it just for fun. Right off the bat I was shooting better. Nothing low and to the left. So my conundrum is deciding whether to continue with my 238 or use the S&W for the test.

I want to like the 238 but it doesn't seem to like me. I did notice the action of the S&W is much stiffer overall and who knows, perhaps that added stiffness fits me better.

Anyway this is more of a rhetorical statement than anything else. Just letting off steam.

And actually I only shot 35 rounds using the iron sights. I wanted to see how the laser on the Body Guard worked so the last 15 rounds were used for that. I found it to be very accurate. This grouping is all from 3 yards.

SauerSig · 12-12-2012, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarineVietnamVet

I want to like the 238 but it doesn't seem to like me.

You have to commit to it like you commit to your wife

MarineVietnamVet · 12-12-2012, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SauerSig

You have to commit to it like you commit to your wife

LOL. I like that.

Well as much as these weapons cost I need to stay committed.

CaptCaveman · 12-12-2012, 08:59 AM

Usually hitting on paper low and to the left is caused by the shooter. Try shooting with a very slow and controlled trigger pull. Don't jerk the trigger back. My Glock I can hit center all the time just pressing the trigger as fast as I can, SIG P250 I had to slowly press the trigger back as carefully as I could to hit center.
What is troubling about the 238 is that its a single action mini 1911. Try gripping with both hands, check out the available videos on youtube, they helped me out quite a bit. Too much pressure with your left hand and the gun will shoot to the left, too much with the right and it will shoot to the right. If you compensate for the recoil it'll shoot low. You have to slowly pull the trigger and let it surprize you. Have someone at the range watch you shoot, have someone else load your gun with a couple empty shells to see if your jerk the gun when it unknowingly falls on an empty cartridge.

Check out my Youtube video that I made about my P250C accuracy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1G_P-...ature=g-crec-u

MarineVietnamVet · 12-12-2012, 09:31 AM

I appreciate the video. It all makes sense and it's most definitely continued operator error but what was surprising was how well I shot with the S&W right from the get go with just a few rounds.

MUCH better than the 238 after hundreds of rounds.

But I'm determined to get better.

CaptCaveman · 12-12-2012, 09:40 AM

All guns shoot differently. I've watched guys make shotgun patterns with slow controlled shots while shooting high end custom everything 1911's after watching the instructor put 8 shots in one hole with the same gun. It's the grip and control.
A lot of people take it personally, everyone thinks they are a born natural sniper because they are so good on their PC Call of Duty game with the keyboard and mouse. LOL.. It's hard to shoot a pistol and then that P238 has a stupid short sight radius making it more important to keep the sights straight.
Plus the laser does make putting bullets close on paper really easy, I can do it from the hip with my Glock. Different trying to keep the front and rear sights lined up with the center of the target and then carefully pulling the trigger back without moving the gun at all and then the recoil is so easy to get into a bad habit of compensating for. Mouse guns are hard to shoot. You put a laser on your 238 and center it up and it'll shoot just as good as the S&W does because it's sight is the little red dot. Hold the gun carefully and pull the trigger and the bullet goes near where the red laser dot is.

robertlane · 12-12-2012, 11:14 AM

Observation from a new shooter. I have P226 22Lr with about 1000 rounds through it now since Sept 2012. My shooting is not great but I can hit the target with it. A few weeks back I tried out the 238 because after handling one I wanted it in the worst way. Unfortunately I could barely keep shots on the paper. I think the small grip in fairly large hands combined with the short sight radius make it extremely hard to make an accurate shot. I guess part of this is that these small carry guns are not for target and long range shooting - they are for very close in. My instructor said basically your first shot you have a hand on the attacker, the second shot you have stepped back a step or 2 and the 3rd shot maybe you're 10 feet away. I am looking forward to trying the 938 which is 1/2 inch larger.

MarineVietnamVet · 12-12-2012, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptCaveman

All guns shoot differently. I've watched guys make shotgun patterns with slow controlled shots while shooting high end custom everything 1911's after watching the instructor put 8 shots in one hole with the same gun. It's the grip and control.
A lot of people take it personally, everyone thinks they are a born natural sniper because they are so good on their PC Call of Duty game with the keyboard and mouse. LOL.. It's hard to shoot a pistol and then that P238 has a stupid short sight radius making it more important to keep the sights straight.
Plus the laser does make putting bullets close on paper really easy, I can do it from the hip with my Glock. Different trying to keep the front and rear sights lined up with the center of the target and then carefully pulling the trigger back without moving the gun at all and then the recoil is so easy to get into a bad habit of compensating for. Mouse guns are hard to shoot. You put a laser on your 238 and center it up and it'll shoot just as good as the S&W does because it's sight is the little red dot. Hold the gun carefully and pull the trigger and the bullet goes near where the red laser dot is.

If only Texas let you use a laser to qualify.

lgustavus81 · 12-12-2012, 12:38 PM

Yeah I hit everything with my laser!

bearone2 · 12-12-2012, 02:51 PM

take a look at these:

MarineVietnamVet · 12-12-2012, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearone2

take a look at these:

I've seen the correction chart but not the finger placement pictures.

Thanks for the info.

bearone2 · 12-12-2012, 03:34 PM

finger placement is straight from sig.

you're welcome

MarineVietnamVet · 12-12-2012, 03:41 PM

To add a little to my first post that handgun proficiency is something I have to really work at some people do seem to come to it naturally.

My wife comes to mind. She is a natural shot with any type of firearm she picks up. When she decided to get her CHL last year I bought her a Taurus .32 because she wanted something smaller that would fit in her purse and not be too heavy.

She had not fired a handgun in years and took a private lesson the day before she qualified. She fired 50 rounds that day and another 50 rounds on qual day. She scored 239 out of 250.

It must be nice to have that natural talent but alas I don't.

CaptCaveman · 12-12-2012, 03:43 PM

bearone2 you're awesome.. Those charts say it all.

jaro · 12-12-2012, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearone2

take a look at these:

I want to print the target. How big is the circle and what's the proper distance?

CaptCaveman · 12-12-2012, 04:34 PM

Bearone2 can you give us a link to the original files so we can print them out and share them with others please?

bearone2 · 12-12-2012, 05:09 PM

the one on the left is from this website & the one on the right from the web, probably sigforum.
SIG SAUER Sport

Mack · 12-13-2012, 08:02 AM

I'm not a good shot with a pistol. (Really bad hand/eye coordination.) This is late in the game to help you, but when I qualified, everybody told me to use a full size 9 mm. A friend loaned a Springfield XD to me and I qualified on the first two targets. Really surprised myself.

Good luck.

MarineVietnamVet · 12-13-2012, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mack

I'm not a good shot with a pistol. (Really bad hand/eye coordination.) This is late in the game to help you, but when I qualified, everybody told me to use a full size 9 mm. A friend loaned a Springfield XD to me and I qualified on the first two targets. Really surprised myself.

Good luck.

Thanks for the comment. I might consider a larger weapon if I didn't have only two days left to practice with it.

But I still want to qualify with the same weapon I will carry. That's probably being overly stubborn which I freely admit.

SnakeShooter17 · 12-13-2012, 09:45 AM

I think that it's trigger finger placement. I had a hard time with my Grandma's 709 Slim during dry fire, until I figured out that my massive hands lent to a different shooting dynamic with the tiny grip and short trigger reach. I have to put the trigger onto the second phalange of my index finger in order for the trigger to break without screwing up the sight picture. Bear posted that one picture, and it's helpful to know where the errors come from. Just practice dry fire!

12-12-2012, 07:36 AM	#1
MarineVietnamVet Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Amarillo, Texas Posts: 35	A conundrum My CHL test is this Saturday and I've put 450 rounds through my 238 in preparation with very mixed results. While admittedly a handgun has never been my string suit (I'm much better with a long gun) it's been very frustating. I know that continued practice is the key and I've been working on all the fundamemtals; sight picture, proper breathing, trigger finger placement, grip, different etc. my groups, although tight, are still consistently low and to the left. Of course I will keep trying to find the right combination of factors but it disappointing to say the least that so far I've not found that combination. My wife has a S&W .380 Body Guard that I've never fired so yesterday I decided to put 50 rounds through it just for fun. Right off the bat I was shooting better. Nothing low and to the left. So my conundrum is deciding whether to continue with my 238 or use the S&W for the test. I want to like the 238 but it doesn't seem to like me. I did notice the action of the S&W is much stiffer overall and who knows, perhaps that added stiffness fits me better. Anyway this is more of a rhetorical statement than anything else. Just letting off steam. And actually I only shot 35 rounds using the iron sights. I wanted to see how the laser on the Body Guard worked so the last 15 rounds were used for that. I found it to be very accurate. This grouping is all from 3 yards.

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12-12-2012, 09:31 AM	#5
MarineVietnamVet Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Amarillo, Texas Posts: 35	I appreciate the video. It all makes sense and it's most definitely continued operator error but what was surprising was how well I shot with the S&W right from the get go with just a few rounds. MUCH better than the 238 after hundreds of rounds. But I'm determined to get better.

12-12-2012, 09:40 AM	#6
CaptCaveman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Tolleson, Arizona Posts: 168	All guns shoot differently. I've watched guys make shotgun patterns with slow controlled shots while shooting high end custom everything 1911's after watching the instructor put 8 shots in one hole with the same gun. It's the grip and control. A lot of people take it personally, everyone thinks they are a born natural sniper because they are so good on their PC Call of Duty game with the keyboard and mouse. LOL.. It's hard to shoot a pistol and then that P238 has a stupid short sight radius making it more important to keep the sights straight. Plus the laser does make putting bullets close on paper really easy, I can do it from the hip with my Glock. Different trying to keep the front and rear sights lined up with the center of the target and then carefully pulling the trigger back without moving the gun at all and then the recoil is so easy to get into a bad habit of compensating for. Mouse guns are hard to shoot. You put a laser on your 238 and center it up and it'll shoot just as good as the S&W does because it's sight is the little red dot. Hold the gun carefully and pull the trigger and the bullet goes near where the red laser dot is.

12-12-2012, 11:14 AM	#7
robertlane Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Harleysville, PA Posts: 26	Observation from a new shooter. I have P226 22Lr with about 1000 rounds through it now since Sept 2012. My shooting is not great but I can hit the target with it. A few weeks back I tried out the 238 because after handling one I wanted it in the worst way. Unfortunately I could barely keep shots on the paper. I think the small grip in fairly large hands combined with the short sight radius make it extremely hard to make an accurate shot. I guess part of this is that these small carry guns are not for target and long range shooting - they are for very close in. My instructor said basically your first shot you have a hand on the attacker, the second shot you have stepped back a step or 2 and the 3rd shot maybe you're 10 feet away. I am looking forward to trying the 938 which is 1/2 inch larger.

12-12-2012, 12:38 PM	#9
lgustavus81 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: houston tx Posts: 1,058	Yeah I hit everything with my laser!

12-12-2012, 03:34 PM	#12
bearone2 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: AZ Posts: 6,443	finger placement is straight from sig. you're welcome

12-12-2012, 03:41 PM	#13
MarineVietnamVet Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Amarillo, Texas Posts: 35	To add a little to my first post that handgun proficiency is something I have to really work at some people do seem to come to it naturally. My wife comes to mind. She is a natural shot with any type of firearm she picks up. When she decided to get her CHL last year I bought her a Taurus .32 because she wanted something smaller that would fit in her purse and not be too heavy. She had not fired a handgun in years and took a private lesson the day before she qualified. She fired 50 rounds that day and another 50 rounds on qual day. She scored 239 out of 250. It must be nice to have that natural talent but alas I don't.

12-12-2012, 03:43 PM	#14
CaptCaveman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Tolleson, Arizona Posts: 168	bearone2 you're awesome.. Those charts say it all.

12-12-2012, 04:34 PM	#16
CaptCaveman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Tolleson, Arizona Posts: 168	Bearone2 can you give us a link to the original files so we can print them out and share them with others please?

12-12-2012, 05:09 PM	#17
bearone2 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: AZ Posts: 6,443	the one on the left is from this website & the one on the right from the web, probably sigforum. SIG SAUER Sport

12-13-2012, 08:02 AM	#18
Mack Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Deep East, TX Posts: 16	I'm not a good shot with a pistol. (Really bad hand/eye coordination.) This is late in the game to help you, but when I qualified, everybody told me to use a full size 9 mm. A friend loaned a Springfield XD to me and I qualified on the first two targets. Really surprised myself. Good luck.

12-13-2012, 09:45 AM	#20
SnakeShooter17 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Southern Idaho Posts: 812	I think that it's trigger finger placement. I had a hard time with my Grandma's 709 Slim during dry fire, until I figured out that my massive hands lent to a different shooting dynamic with the tiny grip and short trigger reach. I have to put the trigger onto the second phalange of my index finger in order for the trigger to break without screwing up the sight picture. Bear posted that one picture, and it's helpful to know where the errors come from. Just practice dry fire!