txshurricane

That's not very respectful at all. Carrying is a right for every citizen. No one gets to say who is qualified and who isn't.

My class was taught that way, also. Personally, I think that's a terrible way to teach someone. An instructor should not tell people what to do, he/she should inspire them to think critically when it matters. CCW is about protecting lives, not about finding loopholes in the justice system. Taking the shot is either worth the trouble, or not.

hwarang54

I agree with you and disagree with you on this. I agree that carrying is the right of MOST citizens. I also agree that defending one's life and property should not be constrained to "What if he survives and I have to defend myself in court?"
However, I agree with majorhavoc in that CC takes a certain mindset and maturity that some don't, and may never, possess. It takes a great amount of self-discipline and a stable and calm mind to know if, or when, to draw and fire. Also, majorhavoc is not saying that I should not have the RIGHT to carry, he is saying that I am not READY to. He is concerned for his safety, as well as my own.

txshurricane

Yes, I should correct that to "most citizens". But Constitutionally speaking, EVERY citizen has the right until they give their rights up.

I'd wager that most of us on this forum may have been carrying responsibly for some years now but still not "ready" - in any sense - to draw on someone and fire. I only singled majorhavoc's post out because of it's blunt wording. I'm 100% sure his intent was not to belittle anyone. But it pays to poke holes in every post and see what's behind it. There are people in this country - and on this very board - that don't support Constitutional rights. Adding the word "respectfully" to a hipfire statement isn't good enough anymore. We have to support and educate each other, not thin the herd.

To put my money where my mouth is:
No, intimidation factor is not applicable to concealed carry. CCW provides an option for the last line of self-defense. It is not meant to be used as a deterrent on the individual level.
Intimidation is more of an open carry thing, but even that comes with its caveats. Check out this thread for some discussion on open carry.

bearone2

you're right, i don't look forward to that day & hope it never comes.

hwarang54

My intention here is to not ridicule anyone's stance on any issue.Everyone has the right to speak their mind. I can see you are a man who believes firmly in the constitution, and are not afraid to say so. You are admirable in this.

I am the same as you in the fact that I tend to poke and prod and argue the other side of an argument. I do appreciate your honest post. Blunt truth has never bothered me, as I tend to do the same thing and am not easily offended.

I, on this forum and many others, make occasional threads like this to see where people stand on certain issues. I appreciate those who have jumped in and discussed this with me.

SIGLars  

10-4 txshurricane

He is actually a very good instructor. I have talked with him at my range a few times since. I think he was tuning his words that day to open the minds of a couple of yahoos in the class. After all, we carry up here in what might be the most litigious part of the U.S. He was trying to warn any would be "heroes" that we have a huge number of attorneys per capita, all looking to pay the outrageous rents around DC by spinning the facts every which way. Like you wrote "Taking the shot is either worth the trouble, or not." Around here there will be alot of trouble whether you are right or not.

SauerSig

In Virginia, you are required to flee no matter what the situation. The only time you can pull your firearm and use it is if "your back is against the wall" and you have nowhere to run and the B G follows. Only time I would really see myself pulling the firearm at all is a mass shooting that I would try to end or I really have fled and cannot run anymore. Also, in VA it is worse of a crime to "brandish" your firearm than to shoot someone. If your firearm comes out you pretty much have to use it...

hwarang54

IMHO, this is a little ridiculous...... What's the point of carrying if you have to run when someone is shooting at you?

SauerSig

In Virginia, you really have to think long and hard before deciding to carry. I would say you do in every other state but especially states like Va with horrible SD laws that go against law abiding citizens. We have great pro gun laws but HORRIBLE SD laws as I stated before. You have to be in fear of losing your life or have extreme bodily harm before you can take someones life or even threaten it. You also cannot take someones life over property. If you come home and a B G is standing in your home with your TV you literally cannot do anything but call 911. If he assaults you in your own home then you can, this also includes your vehicle... This means "sure mr.badguy here are my car keys please don't hurt me". In the scenario of taking someones life each time you will be arrested and charged and have to prove your case in court. Virginia has become pretty far left with the laws and very few of us carry because of it.

DBS

This is a perfect example of an UNjustified homicide. The BG posed no threat and was fleeing. Six bullet holes in his back? Hope she looks good in a jumpsuit.

bearone2

well said

hwarang54

I didn't post the link to be all "This is what you can get away with." The fact that it happened is outrageous.

sigp229r 

In today's day of frivilous lawsuits, I think if I clear leather it's going to go "bang" - and it will definitely be the last resort. To get to that point, every possible avenue will be utilized - even if it means flight...

MGF

My first training came from range master who was also a tactical entry leader. He came in first in the only gunfight he was in. There was no second-place winner.

His thoughts on the matter that we are not shooting to kill; we are shooting to stop the action that caused us to shoot in the first place.

A kill, or a wound, is in an after-the-fact consequence, he explained. Shoot at the center mass of what you can see.

SiGDaK

To me if you have to imtimidate you put yourself in a bad situation. When in public you should be alert, stay alert, know what your surrounding are, and who is around you. You should never brandish, that's showing off. If the situation has turned into a shituation, then you should deploy the weapon, and use that force that is needed to stop the threat. Most of the time deploying your weapon and directing at the threat is enough to stop it. If you are faced with a threat give loud, clear commands to the threat...don't threaten. If it's in a public place and you deploy your weapon people are going to be calling and the law enforcement are going to come running. If you are with someone have them call 911 so they can advise them what the situation is, let them know how to identify you, who you are, and that you aren't the threat. keep your attention on the threat, stay in control of yourself, and keep giving commands. Those other people around you may not know what is going on, but they will be on the phone yelling at the dispatcher that someone has a gun. When law enforcement gets there they won't know who you are, and will see you as a threat. ID yourself as soon as possible, and listen to their commands, because they aren't going to argue with you about gun rights.

bearone2

good points

hwarang54

These are, indeed, good points. +1

TravestyTrav

Intimidation is actually the complete opposite of what you want to do when you're carrying a weapon. In my opinion, in the ideal defensive situation, the bad guy will never even know you're armed until is far too late, if at all. If I can keep myself concealed and maneuver into a position to take out a threat without them ever even knowing I'm there, great. I'm not worried about fighting fairly. I've also personally decided that if I ever have to unholster my weapon, there's about a 99.9% chance I'm going to be using it for its intended purpose, because I'm not going to pull my weapon unless I'm pretty darn sure I have no other option but to use it to defend myself or others. And, once you start sending rounds down range, intimidation is not a factor because all you're trying to do is stop the threat, not intimidate.

Also, in most jurisdictions, if anyone knows you have a gun you could be subject to "brandishing" or at the very least "failure to properly conceal" charges even if you were right to pull your weapon or it just accidently became visible. So, making sure no one knows you're armed is pretty important. Instead, when in public you should remain alert and aware of your surroundings, walk with confidence, and keep your head on a swivel. When you do that, the bad guys will look at you and think you're not the person to mess with. The term we learn in the military for that is to make yourself a hard target. If you look alert and prepared for danger, most bad guys will seek a more vulnerable target.

hwarang54

Ok.... I have had time to think more clearly on this and, with much research and learning, would like to restate my question in a much clearer sense.

First I would like to apologize to everyone that thinks I'm a wacko nut-job who wants to carry around a Dirty Harry gun to show it to everyone I think looks weird. This was not my intention.

What I meant to say was closer to something like this: What would the likelihood be of a BG turning and running when you draw a firearm, in lawful self-defense? I have seen some "carry" pistols, namely Derringer (sorry if you own one) that if I TRUELY want to do someone ill-will, I would sit there and laugh at them, as opposed to a P226 or 1911, which I would quickly turn and run as fast as I could. Also, in the same scenario, I would be more likely to run from someone who looks like they trained, as opposed to someone gripping the pistol one-handed and parallel to the floor.

To try and be more on target here: What is the likelihood that I would have to actually fire my pistol after the BG has seen it? Does the fact that I am armed have any psychological effect on the BG's reaction? I guess, what I am trying to do is put you in the BG's shoes for now, although we all know that we are not them, nor will we ever be, hopefully. If I ever have to draw, I would have EVERY intention of making that 4-mile DAO P250 trigger pull.

Perhaps the LEO/MIL have more insight on this than I do. First, I would like to SINCERELY thank all of you LEO/MIL for your service or continued service, but I hope to never see what you have to, nor do the things that you do on a daily basis. I am simply an individual exercising my rights to protect myself and my loved ones. I do wish, however, that I could get the kind of training you do....

Thank you all for your responses and not treating me like I'm a complete idiot, just new to the whole HG and CC thing.

DBS

Well, in Virginia I can't draw on someone unless I am in mortal fear for my life or the life of someone else. If I am already struggling with someone who is trying to kill me and I can reach my weapon, I am going to shoot him, simple as that. In that instance it's me or him, and I'd prefer to come out ahead.

The other scenario in which I might draw is if someone comes at me with a deadly weapon but hasn't closed the distance yet. If that weapon is anything short of a gun, such as a knife or a bat, I would cover them and command them to "stop because I don't want to shoot you." I would say that very, very loud hoping that some third party witness might hear me declare my reluctance to shoot. If they continued to rush me with a deadly weapon despite the warning, I would fire.

This second scenario, of course, assumes that I would have time to do all that prior to firing, which might not be the case. It is amazing how much distance you need between you and a threat armed with a knife in order to be able to draw and fire before they can reach you.