First ever use of a CCW in Wisconsin caught on video - SIG Talk
SIG Talk Gun Forum

First ever use of a CCW in Wisconsin caught on video

This is a discussion on First ever use of a CCW in Wisconsin caught on video within the Gun Tactics forums, part of the Gun Forum category; This is apparently the first one caught on camera not the actual first one. I guess Wisconsin recently passed/granted CCW permits and this is the ...


Go Back   SIG Talk > Gun Forum > Gun Tactics


Gun Tactics Gun Tactics Forum - Share and learn about firearm related tactics and techniques

Like Tree3Likes
  • 1 Post By Wstar425
  • 2 Post By Sigarms228
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-04-2016, 12:07 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
7.62Kolectr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: on guard......
Posts: 2,403
First ever use of a CCW in Wisconsin caught on video

This is apparently the first one caught on camera not the actual first one. I guess Wisconsin recently passed/granted CCW permits and this is the first use of a concealed weapon caught on camera in Wi.


https://youtu.be/94YgegcIp3c



My own comments:

Good for him to move wife to safety. He seemed to be the only one wise enough to move AWAY? Everyone else including girls at back of line who were in direct line of fire just stood there watching. Either frozen or in disbelief it's surreal to see it like that.

Black guy in grey hoodie with black vest had hands up and was kinda stuck too close to do much. He was wise to just put em up and probably say 'ok I ain't no threat'. Hands up don't shoot!

Now good guy decides to reengage. Not sure I'd do this if I was already basically out the back door?
But anyway. At first when he's ushering wife away he's fumbling trying to get his gun out. And then the moment he draws it doesn't work. Narrator says it was a forgotten safety but I swear I see him rack the slide when he raises the gun back up leading me to think he carries with an empty chamber. Who knows maybe it did jam or not work? Old round in chamber didn't go bang and he realized he'd should just rack a fresh one in? Possibly?
Either way his first intended shot that didn't go bang at BG off camera seems to place good citizen guy in vest with hands up right in the middle of them?
Also his decided fighting position has him trapped in between the two item racks. Had the bad guy wanted to fight or taken the time to do so our GG would not have been able to move left or right to evade or take cover.
He had better thank God that the moment he drew that inoperable pistol the bad guy didn't see him and fill him full of lead while he was fiddling around.

Lastly he needs a lot more practice.
7.62Kolectr is offline  
Register

Welcome to the SIG Talk Forum dedicated to SIG Sauer Pistols and SIG Sauer Rifles.

We welcome everyone and the community is free to join so register today and become part of the SIG Talk Forum!

Old 12-04-2016, 01:45 PM   #2
Member
 
AvatarOfWar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Indiana
Posts: 49
https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=2PY0d7n9DXc

He didn't have a round chambered, but did hit the BG in the leg.
AvatarOfWar is offline  
Old 12-04-2016, 06:17 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
7.62Kolectr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: on guard......
Posts: 2,403
Quote:
Originally Posted by AvatarOfWar View Post
https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=2PY0d7n9DXc

He didn't have a round chambered, but did hit the BG in the leg.
Thank you for that.
That's a great interview. He seems pretty intelligent and articulate. Has wits.
Except he carried empty chamber. Shows the inexperience. I guess he always thought to himself he'd have time or would be able to chamber a round before things happen. He had plenty of time and still forgot. His mind just wasn't ready and focused.

In looking at the video in the interview it almost seems right on the line of ok and not ok. Bad guy has money and looks like he's disengaged and leaving when this guy shoots him. Preventing an armed robber from leaving is about what it looks like.
He says the robber pointed his gun at the pregnant clerk and threatened her right then. Of course we can't hear it but I don't even see it?
7.62Kolectr is offline  
 
Old 12-04-2016, 06:27 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
Wstar425's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Tomahawk and Abbotsford, Wisconsin
Posts: 554
This won't be a popular opinion, and I'm not even sure I like it. CCLs in WI for a couple years now.

He had his wife and himself out of harms way. Then he reinserted himself back into the scene. For sure, no one else was doing anything.

I give him points as he did "something" and only the bad guy got shot. Being as it's Milwaukee, I'm kinda surprised he isn't being charged with something.

I'm not arguing too hard with anyone that disagrees with this assessment. It could have easily ended up quite differently, he got pretty lucky plus maybe BG was even less well prepared?
7.62Kolectr likes this.

Last edited by Wstar425; 12-04-2016 at 06:30 PM.
Wstar425 is offline  
Old 12-04-2016, 06:45 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
7.62Kolectr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: on guard......
Posts: 2,403
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wstar425 View Post
This won't be a popular opinion, and I'm not even sure I like it. CCLs in WI for a couple years now.

He had his wife and himself out of harms way. Then he reinserted himself back into the scene. For sure, no one else was doing anything.

I give him points as he did "something" and only the bad guy got shot. Being as it's Milwaukee, I'm kinda surprised he isn't being charged with something.

I'm not arguing too hard with anyone that disagrees with this assessment. It could have easily ended up quite differently, he got pretty lucky plus maybe BG was even less well prepared?
Agree.
But.......

There's always that 'what if'.

What if you are safe out the back door with your wife and legally carried gun only to hear or read about six people being murdered in a robbery?
Tough decision for sure to go back and reinsert yourself into that.

He does mention lawsuits in the interview as well as the FBI wanting to or actually raiding his home? Wonder what that's all about?
7.62Kolectr is offline  
Old 12-04-2016, 09:23 PM   #6
Senior Member
 
Sigarms228's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Northeast Illinois too close to Chicago
Posts: 2,697
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7.62Kolectr View Post
Agree.
But.......

There's always that 'what if'.

What if you are safe out the back door with your wife and legally carried gun only to hear or read about six people being murdered in a robbery?
Tough decision for sure to go back and reinsert yourself into that.

He does mention lawsuits in the interview as well as the FBI wanting to or actually raiding his home? Wonder what that's all about?
I understand what you are saying but what if he got into an extended gunfight with the robber and other innocents were killed as a result? The blame could easily have been put on him for that. Certainly no easy answers in situations like this.
7.62Kolectr and DirtDiver69 like this.
Sigarms228 is offline  
Old 12-04-2016, 09:50 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
DirtDiver69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: SW Idaho
Posts: 2,207
First I am glad that only the BG was hit and no one else, and everyone walked out OK.

But there are more questions than answers here for me.

Is he justified in shooting the bad guy when it looked as though he was leaving?
He has moved his wife out of the way and then conceivably the threat for him is gone, so should he engage at all?
If he doesn't engage the BG, then is he legally or morally or in any way responsible for anyone else?
Is he taking undue risk of a firefight breaking out and innocents being hit?
He does not show proficiency with a firearm, empty chamber, safety on, could that be a problem in court?
He was prepared to shoot the BG in the side/back, WITHOUT telling him to drop his weapon, a reasonable attempt, warning should be given, is that a problem?

We can debate all of this, but in a court of law, with some hot shot prosecutor that wants to make ccw illegal or disagrees with ccw, those are the type of questions that will be asked plus more that I can't think of.

As a police officer, you are given the right to use deadly force if a threat is to you or another innocent.

Does that apply to ccw also? I don't know, and I guess it would depend on the laws of the state you are in at the time.

So this one ended up OK for the GG, but I am not so sure if he won't get dinged by the law?

Do I think he did the right thing, I don't know
DirtDiver69 is offline  
Old 12-04-2016, 10:11 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
7.62Kolectr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: on guard......
Posts: 2,403
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtDiver69 View Post
First I am glad that only the BG was hit and no one else, and everyone walked out OK.

But there are more questions than answers here for me.

Is he justified in shooting the bad guy when it looked as though he was leaving?
He has moved his wife out of the way and then conceivably the threat for him is gone, so should he engage at all?
If he doesn't engage the BG, then is he legally or morally or in any way responsible for anyone else?
Is he taking undue risk of a firefight breaking out and innocents being hit?
He does not show proficiency with a firearm, empty chamber, safety on, could that be a problem in court?
He was prepared to shoot the BG in the side/back, WITHOUT telling him to drop his weapon, a reasonable attempt, warning should be given, is that a problem?

We can debate all of this, but in a court of law, with some hot shot prosecutor that wants to make ccw illegal or disagrees with ccw, those are the type of questions that will be asked plus more that I can't think of.

As a police officer, you are given the right to use deadly force if a threat is to you or another innocent.

Does that apply to ccw also? I don't know, and I guess it would depend on the laws of the state you are in at the time.

So this one ended up OK for the GG, but I am not so sure if he won't get dinged by the law?

Do I think he did the right thing, I don't know
I would never give anyone any kind of warning. My brains tells me it's time to let the ugly out I'm certainly not announcing it or giving anyone a chance of survival with anything else other than bang bang bang......
The good guys gun was empty. Had he yelled that command as you say than the bad guy may well of turned around and blasted him. Kinda of a good thing he silently effed up. Gave him time to recover.


Everything else I ask as well. Although in Fl deadly force is justified if your life or the lives of others are in jeopardy.

This is why it's a good idea to watch and critique things like this. Helps one realize what happens, what people do and what they should do if they ever find themselves in the middle of similar.
7.62Kolectr is offline  
Old 12-04-2016, 10:42 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
DirtDiver69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: SW Idaho
Posts: 2,207
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7.62Kolectr View Post
I would never give anyone any kind of warning. My brains tells me it's time to let the ugly out I'm certainly not announcing it or giving anyone a chance of survival with anything else other than bang bang bang......
The good guys gun was empty. Had he yelled that command as you say than the bad guy may well of turned around and blasted him. Kinda of a good thing he silently effed up. Gave him time to recover.


Everything else I ask as well. Although in Fl deadly force is justified if your life or the lives of others are in jeopardy.

This is why it's a good idea to watch and critique things like this. Helps one realize what happens, what people do and what they should do if they ever find themselves in the middle of similar.
I agree this should be discussed thoroughly, as to giving warning, I believe that it depends on the laws in the state. As you say FL allows you to defend your life and others, MA may not. So it is imperative for those of us that carry to familiarize ourselves with laws of our state and any that we may visit.

I mentioned his lack of training, and it is obvious, assuming he knew what he was doing, and the perp is facing away and looks like he is leaving, at that time the threat is passed and the use of deadly force is NOT justified.

All of this is from my background, we had lots and lots of this (over 40 hours ) years ago in police training, what you could do and what you couldn't do.

Today in this society that we live in one needs to be constantly aware of the laws and the particular direction of the prosecutor of the county/state that you are in at the time of the incident.

So if I was there, I would be hard pressed to stand out in the open that close with no cover and draw a weapon, with bystanders everywhere.

My tactic would have been to take cover and assess the situation, if he is leaving get a good description, if he is still posing a threat and not leaving AND my sensors are going off that he is going to continue to pose a threat, then a warning, and then more than one shot, and not in the leg, until the threat had stopped.

Like I wrote before, the mistakes here are numerous. Thankfully no innocents were injured.

A case could be made that the threat was minimal, that the BG never advanced past the cash register and was only interested in that money and not in harming the customers.
And as soon as he turns his back you CAN NOT shoot, only the police are allowed to shoot a fleeing felon.

Like I said, I have seen more justified shootings prosecuted.

Last edited by DirtDiver69; 12-04-2016 at 10:58 PM.
DirtDiver69 is offline  
Old 12-04-2016, 11:04 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
bumper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Minden, NV
Posts: 3,935
Good guy screwed up in a couple of ways as noted.

When the bad guy was heading out he was still armed, no one knows his intentions. Unlikely, maybe, but he could just as easily paused and shot several rounds back towards the store occupants, there's no second guessing what the bad guy might do. He might run into someone on their way into the store while he's heading out and shoot them. The point is, as long as the BG has the gun in his hand he's still a threat, fair and legal game for out GG to shoot. Maybe not the best shoot the way it all went down, but legal.

BTW, that's about the strangest robbery I've seen with all the folks just milling about. The BG didn't look like he made an effort to take control "Everybody get down!" that sort of thing. Don't these bad guys get any kind of decent robbery training before they get cut loose with a stolen gun?
bumper is online now  
Old 12-05-2016, 01:52 AM   #11
Senior Member
 
USMC6872's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posts: 1,409
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wstar425 View Post
This won't be a popular opinion, and I'm not even sure I like it. CCLs in WI for a couple years now.

He had his wife and himself out of harms way. Then he reinserted himself back into the scene. For sure, no one else was doing anything.
Use of Force in defense of another is justifiable except in the nanny States. (Illinois, New York, California and Maryland/New Jersey).
The caveat to this is "you have to hit the Bad guy and none of the Good Guys".
USMC6872 is offline  
Old 12-05-2016, 03:17 AM   #12
Senior Member
 
Wstar425's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Tomahawk and Abbotsford, Wisconsin
Posts: 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7.62Kolectr View Post
Agree.
But.......

There's always that 'what if'.

What if you are safe out the back door with your wife and legally carried gun only to hear or read about six people being murdered in a robbery?
Tough decision for sure to go back and reinsert yourself into that.

He does mention lawsuits in the interview as well as the FBI wanting to or actually raiding his home? Wonder what that's all about?
Not his RESPONSIBILITY for the other six people. They apparently could have walked out the back as well, as the BG didn't try and stop him and wife? This is the same basic discussion we had in another thread not long ago. He was not responsible for the other shoppers, nor what the bad guy did. Once he reinserted himself, he kinda did become responsible didn't he, he fired the first shot (a click) and escalated the situation? I don't fault him, wasn't there. Think/hope I would do things differently/better but doubt one really knows what one would do until the time arises. Training might help, guessing this guy didn't do much?

At the end of video he talked about converting to Islam, being harassed by LE and having to fight to get his gun back, and how the get away driver was out of jail before he got his firearm back. Being it's Milwaukee, none of that surprises me except that he got his firearm back at all! Not right tho.

Milwaukee Police Chief Flynn is on record as telling his Officers to put open carriers on the ground, take the gun away, and then WE will decide who has the RIGHT to have a gun. Not that long ago.

Last edited by Wstar425; 12-05-2016 at 03:26 AM.
Wstar425 is offline  
Reply

  SIG Talk > Gun Forum > Gun Tactics

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar SIG Talk Discussions
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cleaning Video - P238 kurrykid SIG Sauer Gunsmithing 1 11-23-2016 03:42 PM
Any video for older P220 DirtDiver69 SIG Sauer Gunsmithing 14 09-08-2016 02:13 PM
Legion Video 20 second mark?? pilot25 Legion Series 13 09-05-2016 06:47 AM
P226 TACOPS 9mm in USPSA Competition POV Video jng1226 SIG Sauer Pistols 0 07-17-2016 09:14 PM


Top Gun Sites Top Sites List

Powered by vBulletin 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
Copyright © 2010 - 2017 SIG Talk. All rights reserved.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.SIG Talk is a SIG Sauer Firearms enthusiast's forum, but it is in no way affiliated with, nor does it represent SIG Sauer, Inc. of Exeter, NH.