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OC'ing instructor winds up having to use it.

This is a discussion on OC'ing instructor winds up having to use it. within the Gun Tactics forums, part of the Gun Forum category; Originally Posted by bumper If the good guy had pepper spray, it would have give him an intermediate step rather than going directly to deadly ...


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Old 08-15-2016, 09:29 AM   #16
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If the good guy had pepper spray, it would have give him an intermediate step rather than going directly to deadly force (noting that pepper spray doesn't always work).

The only logic path I can see to arrive at deeming this a justified shooting is the good guy has to prevent the bad guy from taking his gun and using it on him. I'm guessing this is what the DA used in reaching his decision. Depending on the DA, this might not have gone so well for the shooter.
The thing about using pepper or bear spray in a enclosed area like the store if someone with breathing ailments was in the store it may have cause a severe breathing episode for that person .. think it was to tight of quarters to use that without getting yourself .. it would have sprayed all over the bottles plus the BG ..

He did about everything your not suppose to do ..

I think they termed it justified after the BG grabbed the man with the gun and pulled him and his shirt toward him at that point it became physical and he was allowed to defend himself .. just my opinion because we really don't know what the police or DA were thinking ..
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Old 08-15-2016, 09:31 AM   #17
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Off topic,


Are YouTube links showing up the same way for all y'all?? That is to say a vertical black bar down the left side of a square grayed out frame with some text on the top banner - - and clicking on that text gets you there??

Is this an issue with the way the forum is processing the links?

I hate computers!
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Old 08-15-2016, 09:32 AM   #18
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Off topic,


Are YouTube links showing up the same way for all y'all?? That is to say a vertical black bar down the left side of a square grayed out frame with some text on the top banner - - and clicking on that text gets you there??

Is this an issue with the way the forum is processing the links?

I hate computers!
Click on the words "youtube" on the picture. Takes you to the link.
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Old 08-15-2016, 09:45 AM   #19
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No, I've used mace and been around the use of mace many times. I've even been directly maced by my partner (accidentally) when on the department (another story). I cannot imagine it would have been a problem in that environment. Anyone who is intensely affected by it (as am I) could simply leave. Spraying mace, or pepper spray doesn't immediately "gas" the whole area. It does tend to diffuse (especially the mist kind moreso than the gel) though the police mace didn't badly contaminate the interior of our cruiser during the aforementioned accidental direct face hosing I suffered.

I've used bear spray outdoors and with wind blowing back at you, even gently, *that* can be an issue, though very obviously a better option than being chewed upon and getting moved down a few notches on the food chain (it was a pack of dogs, not a bear).
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Old 08-15-2016, 09:50 AM   #20
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Click on the words "youtube" on the picture. Takes you to the link.
Yes I know - I quickly figured out how to make it work. But I was wondering if this "change" in the way the link displays is showing up the same for all members here and is perhaps a forum issue?

A week or so ago, posting a youtube link would show the opening "still" frame of the video, clicking anywhere on the video would connect, but it ain't doing that now . . .
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Old 08-15-2016, 09:51 AM   #21
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Yes I know - I quickly figured out how to make it work. But I was wondering if this "change" in the way the link displays is showing up the same for all members here and is perhaps a forum issue?

A week or so ago, posting a youtube link would show the opening "still" frame of the video, clicking anywhere on the video would connect, but it ain't doing that now . . .
I was having the same issue. Thought it was my work computer.
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Old 08-15-2016, 09:54 AM   #22
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Sig-Talk locked up while I was trying to complete my post, so let me add this...

I think it was a VERY bad move to fire the shot when he did, considering the clerk was directly behind BG... and only one shot? Where's the double-tap we're all supposedly trained to fire? Just not sure about that move whatsoever, and what was going on inside the instructor's head when he made the shot. Just glad he wasn't prosecuted and nobody got hurt but BG...

My training says Double Tap, we are supposed to fall back on training, where was this trainer's double tap?
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Old 08-15-2016, 10:31 AM   #23
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I agree that going out to do whatever was not good and contrary to the number one goal of self defense which is staying alive, safe and unharmed.
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Old 08-15-2016, 10:33 AM   #24
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My training says Double Tap, we are supposed to fall back on training, where was this trainer's double tap?
Agreed. Im more hesitant to draw because it limits my ability to use another hand. I think people that carry become dependent on their weapon as if its the "cure all" regarding threats. 99% of the time I would much rather use my hands/words. Once you draw, theres really no coming back. Talk about committed.
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Old 08-15-2016, 10:54 AM   #25
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OC instructor should have kept his weapon holstered. The second the BG grabbed his shirt, OC guy should have punched him in his face until the BG stopped posing a threat. I would much rather have to answer for why I knocked someone out, than why I shot someone.
Having done street-level self-defense courses in the past, for me it would have been knuckles to the windpipe! The moment he can't take a breathe he's gonna panic and back away... if not, it's time to go palm-heel to base of nose if possible, or draw and fire if not possible!

Edit to add: My karate classes were not for "show"... they were how to take down your attacker when you're on the street; if they get hurt really bad... tough feces for them!!!
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Old 08-15-2016, 11:03 AM   #26
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I agree that going out to do whatever was not good and contrary to the number one goal of self defense which is staying alive, safe and unharmed.
And avoiding confrontation.


Once that guy left the store, the instructor should have had better sense and remained in the store and at the very least barred the door somehow until the BG left.

At least that's my thinking.
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Old 08-15-2016, 11:21 AM   #27
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Maybe I'm looking at this wrong... but I find it disturbing that one would go straight to deadly force vs a physical confrontation... or simply push and run away. Are the days of fist fights over... we can now simply shoot someone instead of exchanging blows because of fear of being hit? What if teens, who tend to get into physical confrontations often, went right to deadly force attacks instead of punches? I guess this particular video just seems overboard imo, based on what we can see since none of us were there.

I see physical confrontations every day in police work (fist fights)... I'd hate to think that someday I may be responding to fatal shootings every day because a punch or push... or threat of... is considered deadly force and shooting the other person is acceptable.

I look at using a gun (deadly force) as a last option... when ALL other options have failed and I honestly fear for my life.
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Old 08-15-2016, 11:30 AM   #28
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Maybe I'm looking at this wrong... but I find it disturbing that one would go straight to deadly force vs a physical confrontation... or simply push and run away. Are the days of fist fights over... we can now simply shoot someone instead of exchanging blows because of fear of being hit? What if teens, who tend to get into physical confrontations often, went right to deadly force attacks instead of punches? I guess this particular video just seems overboard imo, based on what we can see since none of us were there.

I see physical confrontations every day in police work (fist fights)... I'd hate to think that someday I may be responding to fatal shootings every day because a punch or push... or threat of... is considered deadly force and shooting the other person is acceptable.

I look at using a gun (deadly force) as a last option... when ALL other options have failed and I honestly fear for my life.
The complication of carrying is that your weapon could be taken from you if you lose the hth fight.
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Old 08-15-2016, 11:40 AM   #29
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I wouldn't have drawn, and i wouldn't let the person know i have a weapon, and i wouldn't have followed him outside. If i'm the victim of a physical altercation from somebody with a weapon i would have to be basically on the ground with him trying to stomp my head in before i'd draw, and i wouldnt' draw unless I was about to fire.

Dont' think i'd recommend this guy be locked up for doing what he did though. If you physically attack somebody and corner them unprovoked, be prepared to have a bad day if they're packing.
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Old 08-15-2016, 11:42 AM   #30
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Leaving the store was the only issue I have with this from a "legal" perspective. Drawing a weapon and then not using it for some time was the tactical issue I have. The time interval from me drawing a weapon to the first fired shot is 3 seconds or less. PEROID! The decision to shoot was made in my mind before I started to draw. Putting my hand on the weapon is a threat, and I carry out those close to immediately. My confidence stems from the gun on my hip, and my ability to use it. I don't need it in my hand.
Ray Chapman had a 5th rule of safety. " Unless actively shooting, keep your weapon on Safe, and secured.".
Safety on, weapon holstered.
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