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Let's Talk P320 Trigger Pull Weight

This is a discussion on Let's Talk P320 Trigger Pull Weight within the P250 & P320 Modular Pistols forums, part of the SIG Sauer Pistols category; So regarding lightening up the pull weight, you can get into trouble if you are not careful. When you go changing the geometry and spring ...


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Old 11-25-2016, 05:46 AM   #16
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So regarding lightening up the pull weight, you can get into trouble if you are not careful. When you go changing the geometry and spring weights of the stock trigger it can affect the drop safety ratings that we enjoy on a stock P320. That's one reason why the GGI trigger kits not only improve the sear engagement over the factory spec but Bruce also adds an additional component that he calls a "cam safety." It essentially assures that the P320 will remain completely drop safe while pushing the pull weight to down to three pounds and even below that on one of my guns. I should also mention that the GGI trigger work uses the full powered striker spring so there is no concern about not lighting off hard primers.
For a carry type trigger job you can actually install just one of Bruce's triggers (as in the trigger itself without the new sear, sear springs and etc.). That alone drops the pull by about two pounds (similar to the effect of a Glock 3.5lb connector) without affecting the relationship between the sear and striker and while maintaining stock drop safe ratings.
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Old 11-25-2016, 05:47 AM   #17
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Here's where I disagree with the above. 1st, if you're so wigged out in a defensive encounter that just putting your finger in the trigger guard area is going to (somehow) cause a reflexive pull, 4 pounds simply isn't going to make a difference. 2nd, proper training and practice means doing things that will raise your stress threshold and allow you to better operate under stress. Someone that trains and practices appropriately isn't likely to fall apart this badly when the chips are down.

I think it's a better argument that having a trigger which allows a more precise faster pull is in the end safer. The Baltimore likely to go where you want them to go and you'll get more rounds on target increasing the likelihood of stopping the thread before any response can happen.
I understand where you are coming from, but I also think it predicts a bit more controllability than is likely in a chaotic situation. And it's not so much about 'falling apart', but actually quite small margins of controllability for which just those four pounds could make a beneficial difference. Also, as I added, I think there are triggers like the stock P320 which offer a pretty happy medium of weight/safety and precision compared to other, clunkier ones like on a Glock....where increased weight makes things exponentially less comfortable and precise.

I see it as the a) added safety outweighing b) whatever loss of precise accuracy compared to controlled competition one may have...even if it's a narrow edge.

a) the difference of possibly not making a shot that you don't want to, even at the last second, as opposed to b) a series of 10-ring vs. a 9-ring shots on someone who's trying to kill you. If that makes any sense.
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Last edited by MoRivera; 11-25-2016 at 05:52 AM.
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Old 11-25-2016, 06:04 AM   #18
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I understand where you are coming from, but I also think it predicts a bit more controllability than is likely in a chaotic situation. And it's not so much about 'falling apart', but actually quite small margins of controllability for which just those four pounds could make a beneficial difference. Also, as I added, I think there are triggers like the stock P320 which offer a pretty happy medium of weight/safety and precision compared to other, clunkier ones like on a Glock....where increased weight makes things exponentially less comfortable and precise.

I see it as the a) added safety outweighing b) whatever loss of precise accuracy compared to controlled competition one may have...even if it's a narrow edge.

a) the difference of possibly not making a shot that you don't want to, even at the last second, as opposed to b) a series of 10-ring vs. a 9-ring shots on someone who's trying to kill you. If that makes any sense.


I think perhaps where we might be able to agree is the notion that this is very much an individual decision. For a newer shooter I would tend to agree with you. But once you've gotten to the point where you put enough rounds downrange done enough training and practice to know yourself a little bit better I think you can consider the notion of going with a lighter trigger.
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Old 11-25-2016, 06:12 AM   #19
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I think perhaps where we might be able to agree is the notion that this is very much an individual decision. For a newer shooter I would tend to agree with you. But once you've gotten to the point where you put enough rounds downrange done enough training and practice to know yourself a little bit better I think you can consider the notion of going with a lighter trigger.
Without a doubt, and I think that's what's important. Like I don't necessarily think that someone is doing the wrong thing if they carry a lightened carry trigger IF they've thought through the decision and trained/prepared for it. But even if one has, like I definitely shoot more accurately at the range and even over moving courses with a gun that has a lighter trigger. But then, if I consider the possibility in a defensive situation of not having a clean, unencumbered draw...maybe lots of people running about in terror and bumping into me, clawing to get away, maybe not being upright, etc....extra safety measures become more attractive to me whilst I can still maintain good, effective working accuracy.
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Old 11-25-2016, 07:01 AM   #20
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Can you point me to the GG P320 trigger that I can purchase as a stand alone part? I just tried to find it after reading this post and must be missing it because I cannot find it. Thank you for your help.

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So regarding lightening up the pull weight, you can get into trouble if you are not careful. When you go changing the geometry and spring weights of the stock trigger it can affect the drop safety ratings that we enjoy on a stock P320. That's one reason why the GGI trigger kits not only improve the sear engagement over the factory spec but Bruce also adds an additional component that he calls a "cam safety." It essentially assures that the P320 will remain completely drop safe while pushing the pull weight to down to three pounds and even below that on one of my guns. I should also mention that the GGI trigger work uses the full powered striker spring so there is no concern about not lighting off hard primers.
For a carry type trigger job you can actually install just one of Bruce's triggers (as in the trigger itself without the new sear, sear springs and etc.). That alone drops the pull by about two pounds (similar to the effect of a Glock 3.5lb connector) without affecting the relationship between the sear and striker and while maintaining stock drop safe ratings.
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Old 11-25-2016, 09:46 AM   #21
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Can you point me to the GG P320 trigger that I can purchase as a stand alone part? I just tried to find it after reading this post and must be missing it because I cannot find it. Thank you for your help.
They aren't up on the website just yet. You could give them a call and see if they would sell one now. There are two styles, a curved factory profile trigger and a flat trigger. You can check out the Ballistic Radio Facebook page to see a picture of the flat.
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Old 11-25-2016, 12:44 PM   #22
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I got lucky with my P320c, it consistently breaks at 5.5lbs now and has become smoother with the more rounds I put through it. Unfortunately, I didn't have a trigger pull gauge when I first purchased it. I think about selling my P320c occasionally since I've made the move to all DA/SA firearms, but I'm reluctant in case I want another P320c in the future.
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Old 11-25-2016, 12:54 PM   #23
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Please explain because I genuinely don't understand this thinking. We're talking about a difference of about 4 lbs of trigger pull. That makes a big difference in both accuracy and rate of fire. But safety? If you're training and practicing the gun isn't going to be pointed at anything it shouldn't, and you're going to have a proficient draw stroke. So where is an extra 4 lbs. of trigger pull going to benefit you?


No one knows how their autonomic nervous system will be have under stress. Exactly why I prefer DA/SA for defense


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Old 11-25-2016, 01:20 PM   #24
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No one knows how their autonomic nervous system will be have under stress. Exactly why I prefer DA/SA for defense


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Actually understanding and managing our stress response is one of the biggest benefits of training.

Everyone should be incorporating stress inducing factors into their training.


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Old 11-25-2016, 01:45 PM   #25
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Ideally, sure we should be able to carry a single-action-only fully cocked with no safety and a 2-lb trigger if we constantly employ proper trigger discipline. But given the unpredictable trauma and uncontrollability of a life-threatening situation, even that little extra bit of poundage could possibly help avoid a negligent fire under stress. Of course, it won't make the difference if someone fully yanks the gun by the trigger when drawing etc., but even as you are entering your finger into the trigger guard, your fine motor skills can be greatly compromised when under such duress, so the difference between a 6 and 2 pound trigger could very possibly come into play regarding firing exactly when you want to, as opposed to unexpectedly tripping it a moment before...or even letting up at the last second.

Much the same reason why many like to go with a DA first pull. It's something that many shooters feel most comfortable with, and whatever loss of 'accuracy' you'd have at likely combat distances vs. competition or target distances is probably not enough to not get the task done. I think that one can shoot extremely well and accurately enough with a 6-lb trigger to the extent that a loss of 4 more trigger pounds won't improve things dramatically within context. Especially in a gun like the P320 which has a crisper, less 'staple-gun'-like pull than a Glock's that may even measure lighter. To me, the P320 has a better combination of weight/safety and precision.
Great post and I agree. Problem is even with a lot of training almost none of us will get the "in immediate extreme fear of my life" type training other then maybe if in the Special Forces.

Here are Daryl Bolke's thoughts on the matter and I think he states it well. I believe he was a SWAT commander or such.

Massad Ayoob also does not recommend a trigger pull below five pounds for defensive use if I remember correctly.

pistol-training.com Blog Archive Why I Like the LEM

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“Safe Action” and other striker fired actions:
There is little to do with these. They are “easy to shoot”. Generally short trigger movements, a trigger in the same spot, and most have a “safety” on the trigger that does not require any deliberate action to remove. The reset and action of the trigger is short and easy to learn. All good things for shooting. There is nothing needed to get the gun into action or post action other than keeping the finger off the trigger.

This is the problem. Even the biggest advocates of “always keeping a finger off a trigger until a decision to shoot has been made” are caught regularly sub-consciously “touching” the trigger. We see this all the time in training, at matches, and it occurs all the time on the street. It is often a result of dealing with fear. Most people are not very experienced with dealing with extreme fear, and extreme stress (and it is not like a shooting match, it is like seeing a Tractor Trailer rig coming at you in your lane). Touching the trigger makes people feel better. Kind of like a child with their security blanket (we call this the “woobie” as a reference to this). This is a problem that requires significant training to overcome. Training that is often skimped on, due to the idea of (again) a mechanical solution to a software problem. It is hard to teach people to shoot at a high level and requires on-going dedicated training and resources…so we will give them a gun that is really easy to shoot. Unfortunately, often times they are too easy to shoot for many end users.

Last edited by Sigarms228; 11-25-2016 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 11-25-2016, 06:12 PM   #26
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Great post and I agree. Problem is even with a lot of training almost none of us will get the "in immediate extreme fear of my life" type training other then maybe if in the Special Forces.

Here are Daryl Bolke's thoughts on the matter and I think he states it well. I believe he was a SWAT commander or such.

Massad Ayoob also does not recommend a trigger pull below five pounds for defensive use if I remember correctly.

pistol-training.com Blog Archive Why I Like the LEM
Also the big thing is we can't predict that if something does go down...even if we are as cool as a cucumber inside...the situation may be just bonkers. We may not be able to draw clean or have good body positioning to take that super-accurate shot. If people are running for their lives, slamming into you and around you an/or you're scrambling for cover...even with your finger purposely off the trigger, the less likely that you'll be bumped into firing etc. the better, I feel. Yes, we should still have complete control over that, but 'd still rather have a 6+ lb trigger than a 2-3 lb one.

Of course, one could say that the heavier trigger would make that difficult shooting even more difficult. But I still feel the safety advantages outweigh that, while accurate shooting with a 6-ish pound trigger (especially a good-feeling one), with training, is still very doable.

But again, whichever way one chooses to carry, the important thing is to put good thought and practice/commitment into overcoming either one's disadvantages.
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Old 11-26-2016, 03:32 PM   #27
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For a carry type trigger job you can actually install just one of Bruce's triggers (as in the trigger itself without the new sear, sear springs and etc.).
Ah yes...they mythical GGI Trigger...it seems I'll ride a unicorn before I ever see one of those...
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Old 11-26-2016, 03:42 PM   #28
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Quote:
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For a carry type trigger job you can actually install just one of Bruce's triggers (as in the trigger itself without the new sear, sear springs and etc.).
Ah yes...they mythical GGI Trigger...it seems I'll ride a unicorn before I ever see one of those...
I guess it's all about who you know. I have two ;-)
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Old 11-27-2016, 08:51 AM   #29
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If I remember your earlier post correctly, you state that you have prototype triggers. I called Gray Guns on Friday to inquire about getting their P320 trigger (only) to see what improvements it makes. I think they were closed for the Thanksgiving holiday; I will report what they say when they call me back (I left my name and number in a voicemail as they request).

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I guess it's all about who you know. I have two ;-)
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Old 11-27-2016, 10:46 AM   #30
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I guess it's all about who you know. I have two ;-)
I don't think rubbing that in our faces is doing anyone any good, and is beneath you. But then, maybe not, I don't know you, only what you wright. And on this thread, you state you don't know when the GGI kit will be available, but on the thread on Enos, you say "very soon". So maybe you are playing to individual audiences on the two sights, one because it is for competition shooters and this one because it is geared more towards self defense shooters.

As for your comment on the trigger though, I'm a bit confused as to how a simple trigger is going to drop the pull weight by 2 pounds, and, if this is even possible, why Apex has not done it already. The only thing I could see is a complete polishing and plating of the parts that the trigger bar rides on, and the parts that rotate in the FCU housing. But I doubt that will reduce the pull by 2 pounds. And again, I'm pretty sure APEX would have jumped all over that on their flat faced trigger if it were even remotely possible.

I did go over to the Ballistic Radio facebook page, and did not see any triggers in the "photos" on the page. If you were referring to one that is installed in a gun, well, that's pretty much pointless. The exposed parts of a trigger don't tell us much, we would need to see the internals to evaluate what potential difference they would make. But again, I could be wrong.

Last edited by AGWoodard; 11-27-2016 at 10:55 AM.
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