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Sig Being Sued By Steyr Over 320?

This is a discussion on Sig Being Sued By Steyr Over 320? within the P250 & P320 Modular Pistols forums, part of the SIG Sauer Pistols category; Originally Posted by Scorpionbowl Not a conspiracy theorist but considering the threshold of proof required in intellectual property cases, and in narrow expansion technology such ...


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Old 05-12-2017, 04:35 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Scorpionbowl View Post
Not a conspiracy theorist but considering the threshold of proof required in intellectual property cases, and in narrow expansion technology such as firearms in general, I'd have to guess that such a lawsuit is going to hemorrhage money along it's short torturous path to NO. Possible one of the big non awardees (guess who?) is proxy suing and throwing suitcases of unmarked bills out of the back of a van to Steyr? Who knows?

I don't recall Steyr being on the offeror list (maybe a manufacturing capacity issue but who knows) so why now? How long has the 320 been in production? Oh yeah, three years. Weird timing? Yes.

This one has plenty of intrigue with Steyr in Alabama and Sig in NH but with Trump as CinC, Alabama is a locked in red state and NH is a toss up so why would you put people out of work in NH for an Alabama that is in the bag already for 2018 AND 2020. Sessions being from Alabama just doesn't have that kind of weight to throw around to politic on this one nor would he want to. Expect a resounding get lost from DoD, and the GAO will rule for the awardee and it will be a quick decision. This contract is a done deal. The contracting process is SNAFU but it's the one the Feds created. Win some. Lose some.
Morning Scorpionbowl

Why put your own dog in the fight when you can just sue the winning dog for infringement then sit back & reap a reward on each gun produced & sold.

Seems like the possibly of a big reward for very little initial investment.
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Old 05-12-2017, 06:39 AM   #17
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Morning Scorpionbowl

Why put your own dog in the fight when you can just sue the winning dog for infringement then sit back & reap a reward on each gun produced & sold.

Seems like the possibly of a big reward for very little initial investment.
Which is exactly what they are doing. They purposely didn't enter a gun that would not have won the competition so they could just win with the winner. They couldn't create the quality product themselves, so it's "ok let's let sig do it for us." I'll never buy a steyr.
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Old 05-12-2017, 07:30 AM   #18
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I actually don't think Trump does know about military systems. He didn't know what the nuclear triad was during the primaries. He was the easy choice however considering our alternative.

He does however, understand the electoral map, listens intently to Mattis's advice who is in turn is advised by his Army secretaries, and having been in the acquisition and procurement game for a lengthy time myself, the end user (Army) has enormous input on the final decision. Steyr is shooting in the dark looking for a short term windfall, and yes, though it's probably just K street prodding from the primary non awardee, they know the appeal is going nowhere and they are just trying to smoke the battlefield with the Steyr actions IMHO. I would be greatly surprised if anything ever comes out of this, most try anyway, but this is just obfuscation IMO. It is procurement Kabuki theater, nothing more.
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Old 05-12-2017, 07:44 AM   #19
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[QUOTE=Wrecks;2365634]
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Originally Posted by Scorpionbowl View Post

This one has plenty of intrigue with Steyr in Alabama and Sig in NH but with Trump as CinC, Alabama is a locked in red state and NH is a toss up so why would you put people out of work in NH for an Alabama that is in the bag already for 2018 AND 2020. Sessions being from Alabama just doesn't have that kind of weight to throw around to politic on this one nor would he want to. Expect a resounding get lost from DoD, and the GAO will rule for the awardee and it will be a quick decision. This contract is a done deal. The contracting process is SNAFU but it's the one the Feds created. Win some. Lose some.


Considering Trump knows jack and **** about military weaponry and is publicly advocating for aircraft carriers to keep using steam catapults instead of "the digital", I highly doubt he's going to have any (useful) say in the awards process.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOT

Hi Wrecks,
I am also against using immature technologies in harsh military environments. Digital launch technology for sustained at sea launch sequences over decades of harsh environmental conditions probably has significant risk matrix challenges against a proven, robust system. The deck folks and engineers have enough problems. I was a Chief Engineer on ships with over 1200 people and some of the systems aren't sexy, just functional. I prefer function over form until the technology matures in the appropriate application. Not anti technology, just measured in it's introduction to the war fighter. Google Littoral Combat Ships for hard lessons learned. Have a great weekend.
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Old 05-12-2017, 07:54 AM   #20
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Like someone said .... no one wins but the layers ... meh
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Old 05-12-2017, 10:37 AM   #21
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Funny how it becomes a problem NOW that Sig was awarded the contract with the Army.

Also the first "mainstream" pistol to feature the removable FCU inside a polymer grip module is the Beretta Nano. Everyone points to Sig as the first one or the innovative one but the Nano was the first one, so why isn't Beretta Named in the suit?

-Dan
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Old 05-12-2017, 11:45 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Scorpionbowl View Post
Hi Wrecks,
I am also against using immature technologies in harsh military environments. Digital launch technology for sustained at sea launch sequences over decades of harsh environmental conditions probably has significant risk matrix challenges against a proven, robust system. The deck folks and engineers have enough problems. I was a Chief Engineer on ships with over 1200 people and some of the systems aren't sexy, just functional. I prefer function over form until the technology matures in the appropriate application. Not anti technology, just measured in it's introduction to the war fighter. Google Littoral Combat Ships for hard lessons learned. Have a great weekend.

I agree that technologies should be tested and made right before being used, and the EMALS systems are. They have better flexibility for aircraft launched, they can be reset and used faster, and they are easier to maintain and fix, as well as having a smaller footprint on the layout. The previous method of eyeballing it is obsolete and more dangerous than the newer versions of the catapult. They are superior to steam in every sense and the only reason to oppose then is to bury your head in the sand and say "I'd rather do it traditionally than do it right".

However the point of the thread is about the lawsuit and I imagine nothing comes of it. Trump doesn't know anything about military technology and playing favorites with any particular company for political reasons is definitely feasible. However, I doubt he weighs in on a legal battle against one of the most well known and respected gun manufacturers in the world (which just signed a major army contract) to lend support to a no-name simply for political capital.
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Old 05-12-2017, 12:16 PM   #23
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[QUOTE=Wrecks;2367514]
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Originally Posted by Scorpionbowl View Post
Hi Wrecks,
I am also against using immature technologies in harsh military environments. Digital launch technology for sustained at sea launch sequences over decades of harsh environmental conditions probably has significant risk matrix challenges against a proven, robust system. The deck folks and engineers have enough problems. I was a Chief Engineer on ships with over 1200 people and some of the systems aren't sexy, just functional. I prefer function over form until the technology matures in the appropriate application. Not anti technology, just measured in it's introduction to the war fighter. Google Littoral Combat Ships for hard lessons learned. Have a great weekend.

I agree that technologies should be tested and made right before being used, and the EMALS systems are. They have better flexibility for aircraft launched, they can be reset and used faster, and they are easier to maintain and fix, as well as having a smaller footprint on the layout. The previous method of eyeballing it is obsolete and more dangerous than the newer versions of the catapult. They are superior to steam in every sense and the only reason to oppose then is to bury your head in the sand and say "I'd rather do it traditionally than do it right".

However the point of the thread is about the lawsuit and I imagine nothing comes of it. Trump doesn't know anything about military technology and playing favorites with any particular company for political reasons is definitely feasible. However, I doubt he weighs in on a legal battle against one of the most well known and respected gun manufacturers in the world (which just signed a major army contract) to lend support to a no-name simply for political capital.[/QUOTE

I disagree with your point on the digital launch system because I have a not long retired bird farm CHENG telling me, no way. His word carries a lot weight. That being said, if they can lower the risk and failure rates then I'm not hard over one way or another. Radar, comms, fire control, navigation, sonar, and weapons systems are ideally suited for the technology they already enjoy as well as future innovation. Propulsion and engineering is more advanced now but it's still pit snipes and deck apes battling against the equipment and environment. It's not easy or glamorous and digital is associated with both. Time will tell.

Trump won't weigh in directly so I agree because it's not Lockheed or Boeing but he doesn't hesitate to get down in the weeds so if the Army wants the original award to win the day then the WH could easily lean on the GAO. Glock and Steyr actions are the norm for these type of awards, but like the majority of award appeals or patent infringement suits, if either one ever gains traction then I will be as shocked as anyone having played the game myself. Sig won fair and square from all I've been able to gather but with no dog in the fight from my end, it's going to go where ever it goes. Overturning an award is a rare occurrence and the lawsuit appears frivolous based on the timing.
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Old 05-12-2017, 01:42 PM   #24
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Well, I finally got my P320SC last week and I'm breaking her in at the range tomorrow. And they can't have her back! lol
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Old 05-12-2017, 02:21 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by ROCKR8R View Post
Funny how it becomes a problem NOW that Sig was awarded the contract with the Army.

Also the first "mainstream" pistol to feature the removable FCU inside a polymer grip module is the Beretta Nano. Everyone points to Sig as the first one or the innovative one but the Nano was the first one, so why isn't Beretta Named in the suit?

-Dan

As I stated in a previous post, if you read all of the article you will see that nearly two years ago Steyr opened an infringement lawsuit agains Beretta for a “serialized modular chassis” infringement regarding the Pico, which now includes the APX. Perhaps Pico/Nano are considered pretty much the same, just different calibers? Anyway, it looks like Steyr now has an infringement lawsuit against all of the large modular players now.

The lawsuit against Beretta will probably pave the way for the other lawsuit against Sig. Also I am sure that other manufacturers will come out with the same type of serialized FCU or "serialized modular chassis" and Steyr will sue them too.
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Old 05-12-2017, 02:28 PM   #26
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Those that can, do. Those that can't, sue.
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Old 05-12-2017, 02:45 PM   #27
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I'll have to disagree with you. I have a full size P320 and a Steyr L9-A1. They are both ugly, but the Steyr is more cool looking. I have about 2K rounds through my Steyr and it is an excellent firearm. The slide in the frame (like a CZ75) makes for a lower bore axis. This with how high your grip is makes for what seems like very low recoil. I really like the triangle sights, too. And the trigger is much better than the P320 factory one, and still better than my P320 with Apex 2.0 trigger. I would prefer the Steyr over my P320, but I just cannot get used to the grip angle of the Steyr. If you are ok with the grip angle of Glocks, then you should really check out the Steyr A1 model of handguns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EUbWF20B0k
Yep, nothing to add to the lawsuit discussion but, the Steyr A1 pistols are about as good as it gets when it comes to striker fired polymer. The grip angle is very much Glock, but that doesn't bother me because of the other benefits, ergonomics, trigger, recoil control. Mine is a 357sig and its as easy to shoot as any 9mm I've ever owned. On top of that it's built like a tank. Mine is a keeper and I'll be adding a compact version shortly.
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Old 05-12-2017, 03:25 PM   #28
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I'll have to disagree with you. I have a full size P320 and a Steyr L9-A1. They are both ugly, but the Steyr is more cool looking. I have about 2K rounds through my Steyr and it is an excellent firearm. The slide in the frame (like a CZ75) makes for a lower bore axis. This with how high your grip is makes for what seems like very low recoil. I really like the triangle sights, too. And the trigger is much better than the P320 factory one, and still better than my P320 with Apex 2.0 trigger. I would prefer the Steyr over my P320, but I just cannot get used to the grip angle of the Steyr. If you are ok with the grip angle of Glocks, then you should really check out the Steyr A1 model of handguns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EUbWF20B0k
Yep, nothing to add to the lawsuit discussion but, the Steyr A1 pistols are about as good as it gets when it comes to striker fired polymer. The grip angle is very much Glock, but that doesn't bother me because of the other benefits, ergonomics, trigger, recoil control. Mine is a 357sig and its as easy to shoot as any 9mm I've ever owned. On top of that it's built like a tank. Mine is a keeper and I'll be adding a compact version shortly.
I don't know much about Steyr and I'll defer to fellow forum members validation of them. I don't even know someone who has one but they are on the approved firearms roster in my not very gun friendly state and they seem pretty reasonably priced when I looked on their website. I actually liked their .338 Lapua SSG 08 but like most other Lapuas, can't justify the cost of the rifle, the ammo, or the lack of adequate range facilities to let it be the gun it can be. Good shooting with your Steyr in the meantime.
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Old 05-13-2017, 08:53 AM   #29
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This is what happens when you are king of the hill.
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Old 05-13-2017, 10:34 AM   #30
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Some good info in this thread:

https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_14/1...is-System.html
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