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State of NJ Suing Sig Over Duty Weapons (P229 9MM)

This is a discussion on State of NJ Suing Sig Over Duty Weapons (P229 9MM) within the SIG Sauer Pistols forums, part of the SIG Sauer Forum category; Originally Posted by GCBHM Originally Posted by JohnnyLoco Everything you said is all supposition. Everything I read says Sig did tried rectify the situation, but ...


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Old 05-19-2017, 03:24 PM   #76
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Everything you said is all supposition. Everything I read says Sig did tried rectify the situation, but New Jersey is suing for damages, something like less than 3 million. Rather than let Sig make it right, New Jersey up and decided to cancel their contract. Lets hear all sides of the story before your typical Sig bashing, shall we?
Of course it is supposition, based on what I've read. I don't know the whole story anymore than you do, but again, the point of what I said is that most of the suits take place over dissatisfaction with customer service rather than making a statement that the gun itself (meaning all the guns) don't work. Surely you understood that. What damages NJ is suing for is really irrelevant as it relates to WHY they're suing. As I said, there are any number of scenarios that could have taken place as to what was attempted to be done to resolve the matter, but evidently the State of New Jersey wasn't satisfied by those attempts. And, I have never bashed Sig, so let's get our facts straight before we try to set anyone else straight...shall we?
GCBHM,
I am not going to even remotely question your position on this because you know as much as the rest of us at this point. I am not defending Sig and count me in with both feet for bashing NJ and the other gun manufacturer that levied their suit also. Both of their timing is highly suspect and that argument regarding suit timing is irrefutable considering the contract award date. Glock on the other hand, just did what many non winning offerers do in this position and protested. At least they got in the ring for the award competition and took a chance at winning.

I am as hopeful for DoD Acquisition and Procurement reform as I am for tort reform but not betting the farm on either. This NJ lawsuit is not a good standard for either Sig or NJ to aspire to and maybe both of them need to critically reflect on why the remedy process was so broken in this case. If it was in this case. I'm sure a settlement will be reached because going to court as a firearms manufacturer against a lefty gun reach state will be preferable to the pain inflicted by a judges ruling.
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:37 PM   #77
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GCBHM,
I am not going to even remotely question your position on this because you know as much as the rest of us at this point. I am not defending Sig and count me in with both feet for bashing NJ and the other gun manufacturer that levied their suit also. Both of their timing is highly suspect and that argument regarding suit timing is irrefutable considering the contract award date. Glock on the other hand, just did what many non winning offerers do in this position and protested. At least they got in the ring for the award competition and took a chance at winning.

I am as hopeful for DoD Acquisition and Procurement reform as I am for tort reform but not betting the farm on either. This NJ lawsuit is not a good standard for either Sig or NJ to aspire to and maybe both of them need to critically reflect on why the remedy process was so broken in this case. If it was in this case. I'm sure a settlement will be reached because going to court as a firearms manufacturer against a lefty gun reach state will be preferable to the pain inflicted by a judges ruling.
I agree with you here. I don't like to see the suit. I feel that the whole thing probably could have been resolved without it, and I have enough faith in the P229 that it could have been fixed IF there was really even a problem to begin with. In an effort to be objective, and given the fact that Sig has suffered some setbacks with their quality over recent years, I offered possible scenarios that could have led to the law suit. Most of the time it comes down to customer dissatisfaction over service, and we all know law suits are meant to be settled out of court. Neither the state of NJ or Sig want to go to court. I hate law suits all the way around, to be honest, but some are necessary to get just due.

That said, the last thing I'm going to do is summarily dismiss the suit as unjust based on what we know here. To do so is simply...well, it is indicative, IMO. We don't know all the facts, so to say NJ is just wanting money or that Sig isn't wrong in any way is clear bias. We just don't know. My personal experience with Sig's CS has been great! I have defended their service to others, but I have not dealt with their commercial service, so I can't speak to that. I do know some folks have been dissatisfied, so I think each case must be heard on its own merits. I think we both would love to see some form of tort reform that stops senseless law suits, though.
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Old 05-19-2017, 04:32 PM   #78
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The State of New Jersey and The New Jersey State Police were long time partners with SIG Sauer, matter of fact they switched from old P228s that they carried for 14 years when they received these guns. So I am sure if they could work it out, or they thought the issue could be resolved it would have been. I was surprised when I was following the Inauguration coverage in January and there was a picture of a Trooper with a GLOCK on his hip. Someone in the know then informed me of the issues that they were having with the guns. I work with some guys in my local Sheriffs department, they have newer P220s, they got them to replace old P220s around when the troopers got their new P229s. They do nothing but complain about the new batch of SIGs, when they first got them it was magazine issues, they had to get them all replaced. Now they are having many function issues during quals (similar to the ones the SP were having), and are looking into possibly getting them replaced. Matter of fact some of them mentioned the suit and said it was not a shocker to them, and maybe they should follow suit.
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:00 PM   #79
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I'm a SIG fan, but I can see that they just do not place a premium on QC/QA like they used to. They are going to become another Remington if they don't stop sliding down that slope.
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:06 PM   #80
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I'm a SIG fan, but I can see that they just do not place a premium on QC/QA like they used to. They are going to become another Remington if they don't stop sliding down that slope.
Succinctly and accurately stated. My biggest conflict is that I love the form factor, I'm not a striker fan, so SIG's work the way I want my guns to work. Buying new SIG's though, is a crapshoot, some are perfect but I've seen plenty that just suck or need to be sent back a few times to be un-sucked.
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:24 PM   #81
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I don't think this one dubious case should be an indictment on the company. Like I mentioned, Texas DPS had problems with the M&P and ditched them for the p320. Does this mean that S&W has all these problems? Did they sue them? Other local departments had problems with their M&P's and rust, but still have them so you figure S&W got the problem solved. Same sort of thing can be said about Glocks, H&K, etc.

I guess I've been lucky with these crappy newer Sigs. The only one that has been finicky is the p224 in .40 with 229 mags and certain kinds of ammo. I think some people take what they hear and make mountains out of mole hills.
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:46 PM   #82
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I have nothing but new SIGs in my safe. I have no interest in buying the old guns. I like the newer ones better. And I've had great luck too. But I still see SIG getting worse and worse on QC/QA. I don't base that on this incident. But I can believe it.
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:59 PM   #83
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I'm a SIG fan, but I can see that they just do not place a premium on QC/QA like they used to. They are going to become another Remington if they don't stop sliding down that slope.
I am new to the Sig experience so I respect the long time Sig owners on this forum who are as quick to criticize Sig as they are to applaud them. Very balanced. If people who are admitted Sig aficionados anecdotally say their QA is slipping, then I can personally appreciate their view. I had problems with my first Sig bought this past winter and they quickly administered a remedy and got it back to me and so far so good after the initial issues. QA was the likely culprit though and their CS was superb in fixing my firearms issues so good on them for backing their product. I have other manufacturers pistols including my favorite semi auto that I own, the Glock 22, which has been disparaged on some posts on the forum (mostly due to caliber) but as a long time owner of this model, it has been literally flawless. Again my own experiences and the Glock protest has no bearing on my outlook on the lawsuits. I neither agree nor disagree in the absence of the award outcome particulars. Let God sort em out.

My view on the suits is that these are opportunistic in nature. If the plaintiffs prevail, then civil litigation justice is done. If they don't win then it is also justice served. I fully expect settlements in both cases though. Based on the limited information I have, I hope Sig wins the war if they don't win the battles. If it is an internal QA process battle then they can win it if they want to. NJ LEOs deserve a good weapon as does the Army. The alternative is indefensible and the outcomes of holstering a marginal product is very sobering for them. I'm just never going to be convinced that anti gunner, litigation happy states and much less successful than Sig gun manufacturers are in it for any other reason than money. If it were not for Sig's Army contract, I strongly doubt that these lawsuits would have ever been brought to bear. Deep pockets attract attorneys like ants to a picnic. To clarify, not all attorneys <smile>.
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Old 05-19-2017, 07:22 PM   #84
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I don't think this one dubious case should be an indictment on the company. Like I mentioned, Texas DPS had problems with the M&P and ditched them for the p320. Does this mean that S&W has all these problems? Did they sue them? Other local departments had problems with their M&P's and rust, but still have them so you figure S&W got the problem solved. Same sort of thing can be said about Glocks, H&K, etc.

I guess I've been lucky with these crappy newer Sigs. The only one that has been finicky is the p224 in .40 with 229 mags and certain kinds of ammo. I think some people take what they hear and make mountains out of mole hills.
It isn't necessarily an indictment on the company. The numerous other like cases in succession with this one is. Look, Sig Sauer is a top tier company, bro! No one in their right mind would argue otherwise; however, to come in here and suppose they are without fault is myopic, if not biased. No manufacturer is without fault. Not one! So why don't take a second and think that although Sig may not be at real fault here, they just may very well be.
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Old 05-19-2017, 07:36 PM   #85
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If you want to read the facts in the complaint filed by NJ, go here:

http://14544-presscdn-0-64.pagely.ne...-Complaint.pdf

Some things of interest in the complaint:
- NJSP worked w Sig for @ a year and a half to get things figured out
- Sig armorers were on hand for some of the testing and red lined guns that were out of spec during pre-testing inspections
- Sig gave different reasons for the FTEs and proposed remedies. None worked, apparently.
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Old 05-19-2017, 08:29 PM   #86
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If you want to read the facts in the complaint filed by NJ, go here:

http://14544-presscdn-0-64.pagely.ne...-Complaint.pdf

Some things of interest in the complaint:
- NJSP worked w Sig for @ a year and a half to get things figured out
- Sig armorers were on hand for some of the testing and red lined guns that were out of spec during pre-testing inspections
- Sig gave different reasons for the FTEs and proposed remedies. None worked, apparently.
Outstanding link Lon Chaney. It sounds like the NJSP were run through the ringer without knowing Sig's side of this. If it's all factual then impossible to land on any side but the plaintiff's. I don't understand the 14 month time lag between finally throwing their hands in the air on continuing with the P229 and filing the lawsuit but it looks like a re-compete occurred and Sig was in on that one also so they didn't want to invite a lawsuit themselves. I also didn't get the 8,400 holsters to 3000 guns ratio so a LEO buddy texted me the whole varying holster math by explaining righty/southpaws, undercover rigs, new accessions, some off duty carries, wear and tear, lost property etc... I am convinced now that this is at least, not a frivolous lawsuit. I love facts and those look like legit ones. I am gritting my teeth saying this because it's NJ but good job to the state for standing by their LEOs.
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Old 05-19-2017, 09:02 PM   #87
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I have nothing but new SIGs in my safe. I have no interest in buying the old guns. I like the newer ones better. And I've had great luck too. But I still see SIG getting worse and worse on QC/QA. I don't base that on this incident. But I can believe it.
I'm with you, though I do love my older Sigs, have more of them, and love them, perhaps more (except the new 10mms)

I don't know if this is a QC issue, but they definitely seem to have a lot of teething problems with newer designs. Their customer service has always been great in my experience when a legitimate problem arises.

And I've had nothing but good experience with their rifles too, which is the one area where I think there are a lot of legitimate complaints that could be levied.
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Old 05-20-2017, 02:19 AM   #88
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Funny, but I use WWB almost all the time in 9mm and never have issues. P229s...P226s...no problems ever.

That's all my wife shoots in her P320 Compact 9mm and has never experienced a single problem.
I too, shoot a lot of Winchester white box 115gr 9mm (along with Federal American Eagle 9mm). It's my normal range and practice ammo. I keep a lot of this on hand since I own a number of vintage 9mm pistols and I have always had good luck with WWB in them and the loading is a bit more gentle on the old actions than typical self defense loads.

I bought a new Legion P226 last year and the only ammo I have put through it so far has been WWB 115 gr, never a problem even though I could tell that the ammo was on the weak side as far as recoil pulse and ejection, the SIG still handled it very well.
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Old 05-20-2017, 10:14 AM   #89
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I just ordered a 229 SAS in 9mm from CDNN, sale of $799/$889 and am wondering if these failures were confined to a specific serial number group?
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Old 05-20-2017, 10:41 AM   #90
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The NJSP suit involves P229s delivered mid-2014 (Enhanced Elite models) and early 2016 (Legacy models). Haven't seen any info on the serial number ranges involved.

That said, other than this suit, I haven't seen anything here on SIG Talk in the way of member reports that suggests a wide spread issue with the P229. In the unlikely (IMO) event you have a problem with your P229 SAS, you have the lifetime warranty and SIG support to deal with it. I wouldn't worry.
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