FBI caliber study - SIG Talk
SIG Talk Gun Forum

FBI caliber study

This is a discussion on FBI caliber study within the SIG Sauer Pistols forums, part of the SIG Sauer Forum category; Some of you have likely already seen this, but here is an interesting read from the FBI on caliber comparisons: FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training ...


Go Back   SIG Talk > SIG Sauer Forum > SIG Sauer Pistols


SIG Sauer Pistols SIG Sauer Pistol Forum: SIG Sauer Pistols - P210, P220, P225, P226, P227, P228, P229, P232, P238, P239, P250, P290, P320, P522, P556, PM400, SP2022, Mosquito,

Like Tree95Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-28-2014, 04:23 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
lonestarjeff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 161
FBI caliber study

Some of you have likely already seen this, but here is an interesting read from the FBI on caliber comparisons:

FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training Division | LooseRounds.com
lonestarjeff is offline  
Register

Welcome to the SIG Talk Forum dedicated to SIG Sauer Pistols and SIG Sauer Rifles.

We welcome everyone and the community is free to join so register today and become part of the SIG Talk Forum!

Old 09-28-2014, 04:46 PM   #2
DBS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 3,844
Good article, and validates what has already been shown by others.

All of the pistol duty calibers, when used with modern SD ammunition, have equivalent stopping power.

You might be inclined to interpret this as meaning they are all equally good, but in fact it's more appropriate to think of it as meaning they are all equally bad.

Pistols are just not very good at putting humans down. Ellifritz studied actual shootings and found that it takes 2-3 hits to reliably stop a bad guy, no matter what pistol caliber you use.
DBS is offline  
Old 09-28-2014, 04:57 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
Hamltnblue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: PA
Posts: 337
Go to a place like New Jersey where Hollow point ammo is illegal and you'll find that the larger projectile is the way to go. The Military is looking at larger calibers as well because they are forced to use FMJ.
Hamltnblue is offline  
 
Old 09-28-2014, 05:09 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
LeftCoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,666
So, basically, give an inexperienced shooter 15 9mm versus 8 .45ACPs.


The one statistic I found quite eye-opening is that LEOs "hit rate" in deadly force confrontations is only 20-30 percent. And they train a lot more than most of us.
Firearms Collector likes this.
LeftCoast is offline  
Old 09-28-2014, 05:13 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
Mystro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Central Pa.
Posts: 1,864
Limited to poor law enforcment training is also a huge factor in the caliber debate and selection. In my area I can't tell you how many LE come to my range and are barely proficient with their issued handgun. I teach a CCW class and would put many of them in a beginner to intermediate level. Its really bad.
Carry weight and unit price is THE only factor with these people. They shoot one time a year only because they have to.
Those that have a higher risk factor are carrying 40S&W or 45acp.
Our SWAT team mainly carries Kimber 1911's. Even the detectives are carrying 1911s so the 45acp is making a big come back.
On the bright side, the PA State Police is gradually introducing even more P227 for the new cadets as the standard duty weapon.

Last edited by Mystro; 09-28-2014 at 05:30 PM.
Mystro is offline  
Old 09-28-2014, 05:21 PM   #6
Senior Member
 
Hamltnblue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: PA
Posts: 337
On average LEO's don't train as much as you think.
Here's a LEO who shoots 4 times point blank but only hits the persons hip once.
South Carolina trooper shot unarmed man, police say - CNN.com
PA28FDO and tcbkkb like this.
Hamltnblue is offline  
Old 09-28-2014, 05:48 PM   #7
Supporting Member
Supporting Member
 
tcbkkb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamltnblue View Post
On average LEO's don't train as much as you think.

Here's a LEO who shoots 4 times point blank but only hits the persons hip once.

South Carolina trooper shot unarmed man, police say - CNN.com

Sad situation for the innocent man!!! And that limited trained LEO for scaring himself into such a situation!
Perfect example of NOT ENOUGH TRAINING (or evaluation) in communication skills and tactics, i would have reacted the same as the innocent man!! Poor hit rate THANK JESUS!!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
PA28FDO and Hamltnblue like this.
tcbkkb is offline  
Old 09-28-2014, 06:14 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
Mystro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Central Pa.
Posts: 1,864
There is very little incentive for non-gun enthusiast LE to practice. Some of my SWAT buddies love it when I bring a selection of some of my personal handguns for them to shoot.
My Sig Custom shop AEP Dark Elite in 40 is the always the most popular. I could sell 10 of them to the dept if I was able to and it was left up to the actual user.

On a amusing side note,......our local police needed a special "weapon" to put down wild and domestic game from car strikes in town. The reason was their 40S&W kept blowing holes in the sidewalk and road when they shoot the smaller game. Now the most shot duty weapon is a single shot Crickett 22lr.

Last edited by Mystro; 09-28-2014 at 06:29 PM.
Mystro is offline  
Old 09-28-2014, 06:16 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
LeftCoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,666
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcbkkb View Post
Sad situation for the innocent man!!! And that limited trained LEO for scaring himself into such a situation!
Perfect example of NOT ENOUGH TRAINING (or evaluation) in communication skills and tactics, i would have reacted the same as the innocent man!! Poor hit rate THANK JESUS!!


And luckily no longer a LEO, but a defendant.
LeftCoast is offline  
Old 09-28-2014, 07:41 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: here
Posts: 4,687
That was a good read. I see the 40 being affected the most as LEA's will follow the FBI in time, especially as they realize the cost savings.
yellowlt7 is offline  
Old 09-28-2014, 10:10 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: california
Posts: 419
On my department, they tend to hire non-gun people. Blame administration.
ronin2 likes this.
gumby is offline  
Old 09-28-2014, 10:33 PM   #12
Senior Member
 
aNYgentleman2006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Lake George NY
Posts: 859
Law enforcement is not supposed to use their firearms unless it is a response to a very dangerous incident and even then only to match force. And when they do I am told they have to make it a lethal shot. Most of the local officers here are so out of shape I am surprised they can even walk half the time. State Police seem to think they are still in the Marines... They all stay in top shape physically. I know a lot of State Police and all of them are very good men to know. At the same time when I use to shoot IDPA I always wondered if the law enforcements members ever looked at their guns. And I knew in a gun fight most of the time I was completely safe. But not many officers get to shoot 30 or 40,000 rounds a year... Their job isn't to use their firearms...
Firearms Collector likes this.
aNYgentleman2006 is offline  
Old 09-29-2014, 03:02 AM   #13
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Virginia
Posts: 51
In my 40 years in LE I have seen and read just about all the comparisons on caliber/projectile performance. Lethal force shootings are each different yet the same. I have seen 5 .45acp rounds fail to even stop a knife wielding attacker while a murder victim was hit once with a .25acp. It all depends on the size/shape of the intended target, where the projectile hits and the damage it does inside the human body.

Over the years I have either read or participated in the "which caliber, which maker" tests for my department. I don't believe in the caliber wars. Anything 9mm and above is fine with me. When I was on duty it was a .45acp. Not for any reason other than it performs better on barriers like angled car windshields. Now it's 9mm.

On training, sadly most of my fellow officers treat their sidearm as an evil of the job. They do their once or twice a year qualifications only. I reserved range time every two weeks, even spending my own money for LFI I-II-III, Fistfire, and Gunsite. It always bothered me that departments left themselves liable for officers lack of training.
Sgt405 is offline  
Old 09-29-2014, 05:14 AM   #14
Supporting Member
Supporting Member
 
Redfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,348
It is easy to sit at a computer and hammer accuracy statistics for those who are put in life and death situations. With very little training one can blow a hole in a stationary target at 15 yards. The truth is no matter how much you train (short of SWAT type training) your accuracy is going to be effected when the target starts shooting back and is moving.

Most enforcement people I know love to shoot and would much rather be on the range that out on the street. In reality there is limited time and appropriations to make them SWAT trained. About 2000 rounds per year per officer was a generous allotment. With qualifications and general training this doesn't leave a lot for pure tactical training.
Redfish is offline  
Old 09-29-2014, 06:17 AM   #15
Senior Member
 
Thunderkat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,496
Lately I have been looking at 9mm as an "experts" caliber. If you know what you are doing, proficient with your firearm, and practice on a regular basis the 9mm lets you do a good job and with a higher capacity you can take on even more dangerous situations. I wouldn't want to give a novice shooter though a high capacity 9mm, the last thing I would want is somebody doing a spray and pray in a panic situation around a large group of people.
Thunderkat is offline  
Reply

  SIG Talk > SIG Sauer Forum > SIG Sauer Pistols


Search tags for this page

9mm fbi study

,
caliber study
,
fbi 9mm 2014
,
fbi 9mm pistol selection
,

fbi 9mm study

,
fbi 9mm study 2015
,

fbi caliber study

,
fbi handgun caliaber
,
fbi pistol caliber study
,

fbi study 9mm

,
firearm caliber studies
,
study of caliber pistol results
Click on a term to search for related topics.

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar SIG Talk Discussions
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What Caliber for SD and Why? DarthPaul Ammo and Reloading 34 12-21-2014 06:21 AM
Safe to Armed in Seconds: A Study of Epic Fails of Popular Gun Safes Malicious Compliance Gun Gear 0 09-13-2014 05:46 AM
Study Showing More Guns Does Not Equal More Murders cridder Guns 2 08-29-2013 09:11 AM


Top Gun Sites Top Sites List

Powered by vBulletin 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
Copyright © 2010 - 2017 SIG Talk. All rights reserved.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.SIG Talk is a SIG Sauer Firearms enthusiast's forum, but it is in no way affiliated with, nor does it represent SIG Sauer, Inc. of Exeter, NH.