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Are our pistols zeroed-in at 15 yards from the factory?

26K views 36 replies 25 participants last post by  ProBMXer1313 
#1 ·
Saw this on the Sig FAQ and I'd just like to confirm:

My SIG SAUER pistol is not accurate. Why? What should I do?

All SIG SAUER production duty/combat pistols are set up to use a "combat" sight picture. This is where the front sight completely covers the bulls eye of the target. Using a six o'clock ("pumpkin on a post") or center mass ("half'n'half") sight picture will result in low impact. SIG SAUER, Inc sights in all non-sporting and non-target pistols for 2.5 inch groupings @ 15 yards. If you are still having trouble please contact Customer Service for further help and instruction. Please have your serial number ready. There are also very helpful free Internet sites that cover pistol group analysis.
 
#5 ·
What are you talking about?

We're all sub - MOA Warriors here.
 
#6 ·
Not to be pedantic, but I believe most quality firearms, by their very nature, should be capable of a fairly tight group and why the Sig FAQ quote seems a little lame. Whether POA/POI are the same, of course, is another matter.

If the question is whether Sig verifies that POA/POI are the same at 15 yards, I highly doubt it.

If the question is should a Sig be capable of a 2.5" grouping at 15 yards, then yes it absolutely should be able to. If it can't off the bench with a shooter that normally pulls those groups, then there could be something wrong. And it would have nothing to do with the sights.
 
#8 ·
This statement should be in a prominent space in the manual. That goes for ALL manufacturers.

Every time I try a gun I haven't shot before, I have to figure out which sight picture to use. So many people on different forums are also confused. I even see folks giving the advice "It's simple POI = POA".

To go further; for 40 years, nobody was confused. Every pistol, revolver, or rifle on the market used the same sight picture. Set the target on top of the front sight.

I'll not argue which is best, but at least then it was all the same way. :lol:
 
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#10 ·
To go further; for 40 years, nobody was confused. Every pistol, revolver, or rifle on the market used the same sight picture. Set the target on top of the front sight.
Youbetcha! I competed a lot back east in NRA 3 caliber matches, rifle and trap shooting. Of course, trap shooting WAS different. Swing on the target, cover the target and slap the trigger!

Came to AZ to retire and didn't touch a gun for 25 years, Now back with SD as my aim and boy has the aim changed! Bring back the pumpkin on a stick!
 
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#12 ·
I'd agree with that. It should be "precise" when you get it, and hopefully it'll be accurate.

I have to compensate mine, but will be correcting that over the weekend. If you're the "not accurate/precise" picture, you probably need to drift your sights.
 
#13 ·
Reading your posts, and the same posts are asked often. There is nothing wrong with asking.

I myself have had other shooters fire guns of mine, and in turn have been asked to do the same for others. That should be the first step before starting to adjust sights.

Trigger control, That is the biggest and in my opinion largest factor related to hitting what you intent to hit.

Range time, and dry fire exercises are your best friend.
I have never met anyone at A range that turned away from someone with A question.
 
#18 ·
Thanks for the info - often I find bits and pieces of information regarding these questions scattered throughout the internet, but they're always missing some variable that I'm curious about. So I'm thankful that we have experienced guys on here that can answer questions for noobs like me...

There's a lot of stuff at play - the shooter, the pistol, I've even heard that different types of ammo are more or less accurate than others. It sounds like ultimately, every pistol will vary slightly to some degree, but in general, I shouldn't expect a Sig to be either inaccurate or imprecise out of the box. Luckily I still suck far too hard for any of this to matter, but I like to know the theory behind what I'm dealing with for when that day comes where I don't suck anymore.
 
#35 ·
A Matter of Preference



How you set your sights should be a matter of preference. For Sig, their manual shows half and half. I like ALL of my guns to shoot "pumpkin on a post" and buy new sights (and drift them accordingly) if that is what it takes to get all my guns to shoot "P-o-P". When I pick up any gun, whether it be a Kimber, Sig, Colt, etc., I don't want to have to think about where that specific gun shoots other than P-o-P. YMMV.
 
#16 ·
Precision is a matter primarily of barrel, bushing and slide.

Accurate is a matter of sight adjustment.

The shooter affects both.

All five of my Sigs have been accurate and precise. More so than I am. Use a bench rest and one can find this out.

Firing offhand, my patterns are typically a little left and just slightly high at times. But this is due faulty trigger technique. Having concentrated on this aspect, I have seen significant improvement with the pattern center moving back toward the bullseye. Still a little more improvement to go, though.
 
#17 ·
When using an 8" target (shoot and see) at 5 to 7 yds, my brother was more of an "inaccurate/not precise" shooter. I had him switch to a 3" shoot and see at the same distance and what do you know--much more accurate and precise. It's the old "shoot small, miss small" advice. Now, if I could only get him to shoot with both eyes open.
 
#20 ·
I don't claim to be a great shot. But I'm convinced all of my guns have their sights set closer than I'm capable of.

I'm glad I didn't start fiddling with my sights 2 1/2 years ago. As I keep shooting I keep getting smaller groups, closer to the bulls eye.
 
#25 ·
Yeah I'm not even considering that at this point. I just want to give it to someone "really good" and have them tell me what they think. If it's "OK" then I can go on practicing.

It's like messing with the suspension settings on your car - you always end up making it worse. ALWAYS.

And not to overload you, But the shooting and learning is all the fun part of our sport.
Then comes the time to clean and maintain. I just spent 2 1/2 hours stripping and cleaning 4 Sigs and my trusty old 357 revolver. And this part of it too will pose questions for you.
Yeah I don't mind it... I don't even wanna tell you guys how many hours I've spent researching the Magnus effect, precession, trajectories, etc. I've already done all the cleaning research - out of all the subjects, cleaning seems to be the most widely-debated topic. :mellow:

Remember there are no dumb questions, Except for the ones that are not asked.
Spend a week in my office...

As kirk2022 alluded to, a vast majority of shooter problems stem from the way in which you pull the trigger. Learning your trigger and mastering the correct way to pull the trigger on an individual handgun can make a world of difference.

When my friends ask me for tips and advice I tell them that I can instantly improve the quality of their shooting by watching them pull the trigger and showing them the correct way to do it.

Most importantly you should learn your trigger. Every trigger is different and don't assume because you are familiar with one then it will be that way for others. Know the amount of pressure it takes to pull the trigger. I can't stress this enough but learn the slack or play in your trigger, and each time you fire learn EXACTLY how much you need to let off of the trigger before it resets. Once you learn this, never let off of the trigger no more than you must to allow it to reset.

Also use the tip of your finger to pull the trigger. The more finger you put in the trigger guard, the more apt you are to pull your shot toward your hand. The same way with the play in the trigger. If each time you fire you completely let off of the trigger, when you pull that play out the next time you are more apt to pull your POI to the side to the hand you are using.

Learning and mastering your trigger is imperative in mastering your handgun.
This will be my focus when my P226 comes back from the factory with its SRT + short reach trigger.
 
#21 ·
And not to overload you, But the shooting and learning is all the fun part of our sport.
Then comes the time to clean and maintain. I just spent 2 1/2 hours stripping and cleaning 4 Sigs and my trusty old 357 revolver. And this part of it too will pose questions for you.

Remember there are no dumb questions, Except for the ones that are not asked.
 
#22 ·
SIGs are all over the map. I've had some that actually gave POI's in line with the CSH and then others, not. My 2 Bolivian contract P250 FS pistols are actually sighted high.

Who knows.
 
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#26 ·
A new M11-A1 Desert needed a front sight change from an 8 to a 6 because it was shooting so high new out of the box. SIG offers many different front and rear sights to adjust bullet strike up or down. I'm fortunate that I had a sight on hand that moved the strike in the right direction.

Both the front sight and rear sight can be adjusted for windage (R/L), but it is best to adjust the rear first in most cases.

Most SIGs seem to come more accurately sighted than I can shoot. The best way to find out where a new SIG is shooting is to dry fire with a LaserLyte in the chamber IMO. The practice will also show how consistent your technique is.

Bill
 
#23 ·
As kirk2022 alluded to, a vast majority of shooter problems stem from the way in which you pull the trigger. Learning your trigger and mastering the correct way to pull the trigger on an individual handgun can make a world of difference.

When my friends ask me for tips and advice I tell them that I can instantly improve the quality of their shooting by watching them pull the trigger and showing them the correct way to do it.

Most importantly you should learn your trigger. Every trigger is different and don't assume because you are familiar with one then it will be that way for others. Know the amount of pressure it takes to pull the trigger. I can't stress this enough but learn the slack or play in your trigger, and each time you fire learn EXACTLY how much you need to let off of the trigger before it resets. Once you learn this, never let off of the trigger no more than you must to allow it to reset.

Also use the tip of your finger to pull the trigger. The more finger you put in the trigger guard, the more apt you are to pull your shot toward your hand. The same way with the play in the trigger. If each time you fire you completely let off of the trigger, when you pull that play out the next time you are more apt to pull your POI to the side to the hand you are using.

Learning and mastering your trigger is imperative in mastering your handgun.
 
#24 ·
At 15 yards, my sp2022 hits dead on if I use a center mass sight picture (front sight covering half the bullseye). I'd be interested to see how other Sigs' sights come from the factory. Mine didn't need any adjustment at all when using that sight picture.
 
#28 · (Edited)


The above picture was shot off a bench and sand bag with my 1911 at 10 or 12 yards
( don't remember )
Different bullets and different powder ( hand loads )




The above Pic, here was shot with the Sig P320 compact 45 A C P
again of the bench as the one above, different bullets and different powder.



Above picture was the sig P320 45 acp compact shot standing same distance.
Ammo was 200 grain cast lead, ( my casting ) I think it was 6.9 grains of long shot powder.

No one can tell me the guns are not accurate, I shoot multiple targets all the time when I do testing, this eliminates the once in a while good day wallet picture.

I can do this any time, multiple targets prove that.
I have also been shooting over 45 years.

Combat shooting is not bulls eye shooting, that is NO 6:O'clock hold, it just does not work and I don't have the time to explain why right now. I will try in the future.

All the pics were shot using sights dead on the target and = POA POI

The little black dots are 1" so if the gun does this at 10 or 12 yards, I seriously doubt it will open to 2.5 inches because of an extra 2 or 3 yards. Some of the groups here are under one inch.

The larger targets are 3" so you can see the shooter error when I was off the sand bag.
Hey ! I am 73 years old soon to be 74 in a few day's, so I shake a tad, not much, just a t ad.
 
#29 ·
I always hit where I am aiming, It's just not always where I wanted.
 
#31 ·
I've posted this a number of times on the board, but here goes again. I don't believe in the "combat sight picture" that is on Sig's website.

Why? Two reasons actually.

First, at this point I own 6 Sigs and 5 of them shoot exactly to POA using what's usually referred to as sight picture #2. The 6th shoots around 3/4" low at 15 yards. That's real close to sight picture #2 and a long way from sight picture #3. As of yesterday, I've also shot 13 other Sigs owned by members of my weekly group and all them use sight picture #2 with the exception of the 220 10MM I shot yesterday. It shot around 4" high at 10 yards using sight picture #2.

Second, I find it very difficult to believe that a company advertises on its website that you need sight picture #3 and then seems unable to build a gun that actually uses anything but sight picture #2. Something's just not right here.
 
#33 · (Edited)
If you are asking if the SIG FAQ is correct, the answer is yes.

If you are able to shoot well enough to make it happen, SIGS will deliver 2.5" groups at 15 yards.

Again...it is important to keep in mind that SIG handguns, unless designed otherwise, are combat arms, not precision target pistols.

This is a point that sadly is lost on a lot of shooters who always expect more from their firearms than they are designed to deliver, if they are even able to shoot consistently well enough with a handgun to begin with.


FWIW...here is a post I found elsewhere describing the results of shooting from a Ransom rest at 50 yards with a SIG P226:

Hello. I have seen a P226 fired at 50 yards from a Ransom Rest, which was secured to a concrete bench. The desire was to remove human error and actually see what accuracy the pistol is capable of mechanically, which I think is what you are asking.

What surprised me most was how much difference in accuracy ammunition-choice made at that distance. At 25 yards and in, most factory ammo grouped nicely, but at 50 yards and out, load differences between ammo brands were sometimes pretty noticeable.

At 50 yards, I recall no "first-round flyer syndrome" and with ammunition it "liked", the gun would drop 5 shots well inside a 5" circle at that distance. With some ammunition, groups spread into the 6 or 7" range but most were at 5 and under. I think that the best I saw at 50 yards measured something like 4 1/4" or so. Whether that particular group was a fluke or not or how representative this "sample" of but one pistol was, I don't know. The pistol had not been accurized and was completely stock.

This test was done in the '80's. It wouldn't surprise me if the same gun shooting current ammunition might not group better than with what was shot then. I truly believe that not only has terminal effectiveness been improved, but also accuracy since some organizations are including accuracy requirements at a given distance to their ammo-choice parameters. (None of the loads tried weighed over 124 grains so I have no information on how the heavier bullet loads of that time did from the P226 when fired from a Ransom Rest.)

 
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