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Showdown: SIG P229 Legion vs. SIG M11-A1

This is a discussion on Showdown: SIG P229 Legion vs. SIG M11-A1 within the SIG Sauer Pistols forums, part of the SIG Sauer Forum category; Originally Posted by Kelleytoons I think the one time you DON'T want to put a light on a gun is at home, for your nightstand. ...


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Old 09-30-2016, 08:58 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Kelleytoons View Post
I think the one time you DON'T want to put a light on a gun is at home, for your nightstand. -snip-

Every single expert I've ever read cautions against this, and I will not disagree with them (illuminate separately, THEN point a weapon if need be).
Talk to more experts. There's two sides to this coin.

WML Pros:

The light or light/laser is on the gun, right there, one thing to grab and one thing to hold and manipulate. Most lights have a momentary on function of switch on via trigger finger or off hand finger or thumb. Both hands on the gun for maximum control and two handed grip. If your trigger finger isn't on the trigger, there's no risk of ND. I'm retired, at night my wife is right next to me and so is my dog - I know where they are. There is slim to no risk of them being inadvertently shot.

Cons: When I was a cop in the 70's, we were taught to hold our feeble little flashlights out to the side when doing a building search, as the bad guy would surely shoot at the light. Okay, fair enough, and there's doubtless some validity to this argument. With a WML, the light is right there, but I think most of us are not going to be doing a sweep of the house with the light steady on. I can walk through my home blindfolded almost, or at least with the minimal light that comes from nightlights and LED indicator lights, or through the windows from the outdoor motion sensing flood lights. For navigation, I don't need the weapon light. I need the weapon light for positive target identification and targeting, so in most situations the light will be off until I see the bad guy. And in most situations, hopefully I will have the advantage of familiarity and surprise. I have alarm screens on my windows and a full perimeter alarm - he won't be coming in quietly, nor will he likely continue in unless he's on PCP or something.

Skip the weapon light Pros:

See above.

Cons: One more thing to pick up, fumble with, and carry. With both hands occupied, you can't so easily open doors, steady yourself, feel for objects (cell phone, etc?) and will have to dispense with a normal two-hand shooting grip. Getting back on target for a second shot if need be will be more difficult and not likely as quick and accurate while shooting one handed - or even holding the light in off hand and using that hand or wrist to help brace the weapon hand.

Alternative: LED headlight. Oh great, now the bad guy really does have a well lit target! And it takes one hand to turn it on or off. Not a practical choice unless outdoors, camping, or working on your car - then they are great.

So, Phooey on those so called experts - for nightstand use a WML is a superb option. A suppressor is good too, protect the bad guy's hearing , substantially reduce recoil and muzzle flash to protect your night vision.



edit: If you look close at the P229 pictured, you'll see the trigger overtravel stop, a small piece of black Delrin, milled to shape and simply pressed into the little rectangular recess in the back of the MIM trigger. Like many, I prefer the solid, pre-MIM stuff, on those you can simply drill an 1/8" hole, .2" deep and press in a bit of 1/8" Delrin rod for the stop. In both cases the stop is filed or sanded (easier) to length after putting a bit of tape on the frame to prevent goofs.
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Last edited by bumper; 09-30-2016 at 01:10 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 09-30-2016, 11:03 AM   #17
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Sorry, but the experts I trust (like Mayoob) have convinced me NOT to have a light on a gun.

I think LEO is a whole different ball game -- walking around in my house at night (I'm retired as well) and there have been MANY times I was SURE my wife was in bed next to me -- only to find she had gotten up to feed the cats.

It's either the second or third rule of firearms (which I'm sure you know) -- never point your weapon at anything you don't want to destroy. It's not "Don't point your weapon if you don't have your finger on the trigger" it's don't point your weapon - period. Cops have made some very bad mistakes breaking this rule, but can get away with it where civilians definitely CANNOT. Ain't gonna go there.
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Old 09-30-2016, 03:21 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Kelleytoons View Post
Sorry, but the experts I trust (like Mayoob) have convinced me NOT to have a light on a gun.

I think LEO is a whole different ball game -- walking around in my house at night (I'm retired as well) and there have been MANY times I was SURE my wife was in bed next to me -- only to find she had gotten up to feed the cats.

It's either the second or third rule of firearms (which I'm sure you know) -- never point your weapon at anything you don't want to destroy. It's not "Don't point your weapon if you don't have your finger on the trigger" it's don't point your weapon - period. Cops have made some very bad mistakes breaking this rule, but can get away with it where civilians definitely CANNOT. Ain't gonna go there.
Not to mention those of us with kids, for me, no thanks on WML.
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Old 05-18-2017, 05:31 PM   #19
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Do you know if the M11A1 is included in the P229 issue highlighted by the NJ State police P229 FTE. I was trying to decide between a P229 and a P226 MK25 until I recently found a M11 A1 at a Gander Mountain liquidation Sale for $800.00 but the lawsuit has given me some serious concerns. Should I try and get back my deposit and go for the MH25? Any Advice?


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Old 05-18-2017, 06:11 PM   #20
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My opinion - bring your gun home. You'll be hard pressed to find a smoother out of the box, easier to shoot gun. It's well balanced (in my hands), accurate and easy to carry.

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Old 05-19-2017, 02:25 PM   #21
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No, the M11A1 isn't included. It has to do with 229 Elites manufactured in 2014. Don't be worried. I have little over 35,000 rounds through my M11A1 with no failures of any kind. The M11A1 is a tank with the 229 frame and solid steel slide. I'm going to put my 229 Legion on Gunbroker this week and sell it to purchase another M11A1.
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:10 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Kelleytoons View Post
Sorry, but the experts I trust (like Mayoob) have convinced me NOT to have a light on a gun.

I think LEO is a whole different ball game -- walking around in my house at night (I'm retired as well) and there have been MANY times I was SURE my wife was in bed next to me -- only to find she had gotten up to feed the cats.

It's either the second or third rule of firearms (which I'm sure you know) -- never point your weapon at anything you don't want to destroy. It's not "Don't point your weapon if you don't have your finger on the trigger" it's don't point your weapon - period. Cops have made some very bad mistakes breaking this rule, but can get away with it where civilians definitely CANNOT. Ain't gonna go there.
There are a number of opinions on the subject of WMLs on handguns, but at the end of the day it is a persona choice. If you're not comfortable with it then don't do it, but there is nothing wrong with it if you're trained on how to use it. I find the statement that "civilians definitely CANNOT" get away with breaking the rule "do not point your weapon - period" is myopic at best. If you don't want to go there then don't. Nothing at all wrong with that, but let me ask you this.

How do you intend to employ the use of a flashlight in your off hand? If it isn't with the run ready to be fired then you may as well just not use a light at all, or barricade and wait for the police to arrive and hope no one breaks through your barrier b/c if you don't intend to use a light you can't see what you're shooting, and you should never point your gun at something you're not willing to destroy, right? Just food for thought.

For your review:


Last edited by GCBHM; 05-19-2017 at 03:13 PM.
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:27 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Kelleytoons View Post
I think the one time you DON'T want to put a light on a gun is at home, for your nightstand. I'm only going by what I've read time and again by experts, but it makes sense to me -- to identify your targets you first need to light up things which are NOT targets, and pointing a gun at something you DON'T want to destroy violates at least one of the main tenants of good firearm rules.

In a home it could be other loved ones, pets, or even just a person in the wrong house (with no Bad Intentions). Every single expert I've ever read cautions against this, and I will not disagree with them (illuminate separately, THEN point a weapon if need be).
Kelly.
We agree about many different things, but I disagree strongly about Lights on guns. The "Experts" are usually armchair theorists who are more interested in preventing lawsuits about their advise, or are egotistical "Professionals" that don't think anyone normal can be capable in a stress situation.

You have to practice and keep your plan in your mind from the beginning if you are going clear your home. And you have to make the conscious decision to keep the finger off the bang switch until your Sights are on the target. Period.
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Old 05-19-2017, 04:33 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Gunny49 View Post
Do you know if the M11A1 is included in the P229 issue highlighted by the NJ State police P229 FTE. I was trying to decide between a P229 and a P226 MK25 until I recently found a M11 A1 at a Gander Mountain liquidation Sale for $800.00 but the lawsuit has given me some serious concerns. Should I try and get back my deposit and go for the MH25? Any Advice?
IMO, the NJSP P229 fiasco is an absolute NON-ISSUE with respect to your purchase. Buy the M11A1 in absolute confidence. I've owned two P229's, a railed 2012 and my current 2016 M11A1; they have both been stelar performers. I only wish that I could have hung onto the 229R but that's life.

I really don't think the NJ/SIG suit has anything to do with the P229's involved and everything to do with the two organizations that could't bring a technical issue to successful resolution without going "nuclear". Shameful.
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Old 05-20-2017, 03:16 AM   #25
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I need one of these, as I cant see very good at night..
https://youtu.be/XK3e3rhTw-I
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Old 05-20-2017, 04:47 AM   #26
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I wanna know who goes to bed with all the lights in the house turned off anyway? I would still like the option of the WML anyway.
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Old 05-20-2017, 05:37 AM   #27
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Thumbs up

I also have both a M11-A1 and numerous other 229's (railed and not). I love um all. Ha, my downfall. I guess with a rail, even if you don't light it up, you at least have the option.
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Old 05-20-2017, 06:27 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Kelleytoons View Post
I think the one time you DON'T want to put a light on a gun is at home, for your nightstand. I'm only going by what I've read time and again by experts, but it makes sense to me -- to identify your targets you first need to light up things which are NOT targets, and pointing a gun at something you DON'T want to destroy violates at least one of the main tenants of good firearm rules.

In a home it could be other loved ones, pets, or even just a person in the wrong house (with no Bad Intentions). Every single expert I've ever read cautions against this, and I will not disagree with them (illuminate separately, THEN point a weapon if need be).


This is because nobody explained to you how to use a WML. You never point the light at anybody.

The light is aimed where you should point your barrel anyways, down towards the floor.

You use the light scattering to illuminate your subject. Not the central spot.
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Old 05-20-2017, 07:04 AM   #29
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Have both. Love both. Its like comparing a 69 camaro with a 350 to a big block. Similar but very different.
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Old 05-20-2017, 02:20 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Fardoche View Post
This is because nobody explained to you how to use a WML.
Assume much?

Quote:
You never point the light at anybody.
Isn't the ability to blind/stun your opponent one of the supposed benefits of these things? I doubt that can be achieved with peripheral backsplash.
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