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556R accuracy @ 100 yards or so...

16K views 55 replies 16 participants last post by  556rcali 
#1 · (Edited)
556R (7.62x39) accuracy @ 100 yards or so...

Hello there,

I am a newbie here and newbie shooter, too. I just recently got my 556R. Prior to the 556R I only had .22LR rifles. So, far it has ran flawlessly shooting about 400 rounds of Tula and some Wolf ammos.

Coming from a .22 LR caliber, surprisingly, I can get tight groupings (within 1"-2", 7-10 rds) at 50 yds using Wolf or Tula 122/124 gr. 12X Nikon Prostaff BDC, rested on the bench with sand bags.

Starting from 300+ rds (without cleaning the barrel, mid 40 degree temp, abt 5 mph wind?) I moved to 100 yds. Now, my group spread to about 3"-4" from the center of the target.

Is this what I can expect from the 556R and the types of cheap ammos and for being a newbie? I decided to go with thte 556R instead of the 516 due to the cost of the rifle and the ammos. I am also curious is the 516 or AR in general more accurate than the 556R due to the type of ammunition?

Thanks, appreciate your input.
 
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#3 · (Edited)
ETA: Sorry, I forgot the model you have {7.62x39}

Below are links that will take you to excellent shooting produced by a more accurate platform, No, this is NOT what you should expect. I guess I should delete it but since it is here, well, I'll leave it. Sorry for the confusion on my part.

{I post as EVR over there by the way.}

The New ARFCOM 1 MOA ALL DAY LONG Challenge Post all new entries here - AR15.COM

And a thread I started for field positions;

?OFFICIAL ARFCOM AR NON-MOA ?****? CHALLENGE?. - AR15.COM
 
#5 · (Edited)
OP:

Be careful of the claims made about accuracy.

Search hard. You will find what I am saying here o be true.

I do not believe your rifle will produce MOA accuracy.

I have never seen a single instance of a 556R producing MOA accuracy. If that is incorrect, please somebody post some demonstrations thereof.

By the way, I also have never read of or experienced any lot of Wolf steel-cased ammo that could consistently produce MOA results, and that was even when shot in accurate bolt guns. We had one lot that was very accurate ammo, but it was not capable of MOA accuracy in spite of being shot in a very accurate bolt rifle. I killed many varmints with that combination and my daughter killed a huge whitetail, but as for MOA accuracy, well, no. Most lots of the stuff are mediocre at best, but being shot for the most part in rifles producing mediocre accuracy, no one seems to care.
 
#6 · (Edited)
I do not believe your rifle will produce MOA accuracy.

I have never seen a single instance of a 556R producing MOA accuracy. If that is incorrect, please somebody post some demonstrations thereof.


to the OP:

also be wary about claims by people who don't own the guns and make statements about it's accuracy...

although you won't get 1 moa all day long with wolf ammo, it definitely can be done all day long if you reload or use high quality ammo...

that said, these are my 100 yard targets using wolf steel ammo... it's not always 1moa, but I've shot enough 1 moa targets to rely on it...

then again, all these 1moa craziness in a battle rifle makes no sense though... if you can hit a 12 inch plate at 200 yards, IMHO that is good enough, unless you are taking out small varmint...




these other shots are from the same rifle, not quite moa but good enough for me (just to show I'm not cherry picking)
 
#7 ·
Is this what I can expect from the 556R and the types of cheap ammos and for being a newbie? I decided to go with thte 556R instead of the 516 due to the cost of the rifle and the ammos. I am also curious is the 516 or AR in general more accurate than the 556R due to the type of ammunition?

Thanks, appreciate your input.
I do not believe the 516 is any better, if shot apples to apples... the limiting factor here is your ammo...

there is so much variation in steel ammo, that it makes 1moa not a reliable experience not due to the rifle, but due to the ammo...

the 556r barrel is capable of 1moa, you just need to feed it good food...

and your barrel is likely dirty.. mine started acting up at 500 rounds... (groups really opened up... and it came back to under 2moa once I cleaned it...

I don't get 1moa all day long, but it happens often enough (probably 30% of the time) that I know it's just the ammo..

one of these days I'm going to start reloading for it, but until then I'm happy with it's performance... it's not a sniper rifle, but it will do the job.. .I had a 556 (not R) that I sold, I love the 556r more for some reason.. it just shoots right for me... (I reload 223 so cost of ammo is not a factor)
 
#21 ·
I do not believe the 516 is any better, if shot apples to apples... the limiting factor here is your ammo...
Quite right.

Unfortunately, good ammunition is really scarce.
 
#8 ·
XD:

Thnks for posting those groups.

First, as any rifleman will know, 3-shot groups indicate little in the performance of a rifle vis a vis repeatitive accuracy. I'm just stating a fact here. I've used three-shot groups for years for a whole host of purposes but demonstrating the accuracy of a rifle is not one of them.

Secondly, your post proves mine.

You have one sub-MOA group. OK, so what. Lots of rifles will do that. This is where all the claims on AR15.com came from which went on for years ad nauseum.

Take your rifle to a range, shoot 5 5-shot groups on the same sheet of paper. Show us the results.

Yours you post "not cherry picking", in spite of being 3-shot groups, are good groups but not MOA.

OP:

You decide.

I am not deriding the member here, just stating a few facts;

1} 3-shot groups do not prove the accuracy of a rifle.
2} an occaisional 3-shot MOA group does not make the rifle a MOA rifle.
3} the member's rifle here is a demonstrated accurate rifle, but not MOA unless he saves non-MOA groups and throws away the "1 moa at 100 yards most of the time with my 556r until it gets really dirty" groups.

Google the rifle you own, research the performance being turned in with both factory and handloads. You will what I am saying here is 100% correct.

ETA: If you think I am just causing trouble, call SIG and ask them if your rifle with Wolf...or any other ammo...is a "1 MOA" rifle in average and the most skilled of hands. See what they say.

:)
 
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#9 · (Edited)
I am not deriding the member here, just stating a few facts;

1} 3-shot groups do not prove the accuracy of a rifle.
2} an occaisional 3-shot MOA group does not make the rifle a MOA rifle.
3} the member's rifle here is a demonstrated accurate rifle, but not MOA unless he saves non-MOA groups and throws away the "1 moa at 100 yards most of the time with my 556r until it gets really dirty" groups.

:)
just so we are clear, you stated you have never seen a rifle shoot 1 moa... well a 3 shot group is acceptable as 1 moa, doesn't mean it's a 1 moa rifle, just that it can shoot 1 moa from time to time...

did I buy this rifle to be an moa rifle? no.. I expected it to shoot like an AK.. and was surprised to get better groupings than that...

but 3-4 inch 100 yards groups is simply not my experience.. the OP likely has a dirty barrel.. 2-3moa is my usual experience and I have shot a magazine with under 3 moa groupings...

and I truly believe it can shoot better if the ammo is reliable.. I just don't have the ability to reload for it yet since brass supplies for 762x39 is still scarce..

and I'm not arguing the results on your AR15.com contest.. those are real world numbers...

anyway I'm not trying to argue here.. I respect your point and it is valid.. I'm not trying to claim a rifle to be what it is not, i'm just putting out my own experience...

when it's no longer freezing I'll try and shoot 5 round groups to see what I can get..
 
#11 · (Edited)
Thanks for your helpful information guys!

As I said, this is my first larger caliber rifle, and that I have shot. Thus, I cannot compare it to others. Because I got very good groupings at 50 yds maybe I was expecting too much out of a "battle" (I should say, Modern Sporting Rifle, here in Cali... :) ) rifle that has a dirty barrel... Yes, the barrel was pretty dirty, as I had to run several pieces of cloth through it, before the black **** was practically gone.

Next range time, with the clean barrel, I will go straight to the 100 yds and see how it... or rather, I do... :)

Here's the pic of my range time...

@ 50 yds 200+ rds w/o cleaning the rifle.
Center 6" was sighting in.
Top 6" was sighted, 2 - 10 rds mags
Top 3" 1 - 10 rds mag
(Bottom 6" was shot w/ Sig 522)

after about 300 rds shot w/o cleaning @ 100 yds as you can see my groupings were... all over the place... :)

***********
Well, I just remembered the 2nd pic also includes shot from sighting in again @ 100 yds... Somehow, the Nikon scope was shooting off the target, too high @ 100 yds. So, I had to make some elevation adjustments.
I got lazy to change the target as I was getting close to the end of my session... So that pic is not a very good illustration... But pretty much I was aiming at the 3" targets and for the most part it was hitting outside of it. Sometimes, I will get the 1 or 2 shots inside then the rest will be outside of the 3"...
 

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#14 ·
I have found my rifle prefers some ammo to others. It seems to love WPA Polyformance Military Classic - It will hit 2 MOA at 100yds all day with a 1-4x CMR762 scope. That's good enough for my use. I found that using more expensive brass ammo didnt necessarily mean tighter groups (sometimes it was quite the opposite!). Also, Tula was all over the place. WPA seems to be more consistent and just as cheap as Tula so for me I'll grab WPA whenever I can. Test different ammo with your rifle and see which it likes best!

To the OP: you said your groups moved away form the centre of the target at 100yds; daft question but were the groups just as consistent but further from the bull, or were the groups actually more spread (a 50yd zero will not mean 100yd zero is good!). I zero mine at 200yds, but the CMR762 scope has 7.62 ballistic graticules to allow shooting accuracy at various ranges. Also, an aftermarket rail may help tighten the front end of the rifle and allow for a bit more accuracy/ consistency (I certainly found that with my Troy Rail). It is now as accurate as my RRA and BCM/Noveske AR15s out to 200yds.

You chosse a great rifle by the way! the 556R is definitely the favourite in my collection!
 
#15 ·
Thanks for you input Gradius.
As I mentioned in my previous post, I did try to re-zero the scope at 100 yds after I finished at 50 yds. However, by that time it was getting darker and colder and I was getting tired too. There was also a slight cross wind (5-10 mph..?) and by this time I have shot about 400 rds without cleaning the rifle yet. I noticed the the POI is mostly to the left but some to the right... Maybe combination or all the factors I mentioned contributed to the outcome... I will find out the next time I go to the range.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Btw, I also wanted to mention the NIKON BDC 3.5-14x40 scope, I am using wth this rifle, zero at 100 yds, the elevation is dialed in full (clockwise) down at 14X power. This doesn't seem right to me. However, if I set it to lower magnification, I have to re-adjust the elevation up (counter clockwise). Even when zero at 50 yds at max magnification 14X the elevation is also pretty far down. Is this how scopes normally behaves in general? I am using UTG high rise scope mount because medium rise seems too low for the front lens size. Maybe this should be a separate thread..?
 
#17 ·
Btw, I also wanted to mention my new NIKON BDC 3.5-14x40 scope at 100 yds zero, the elevation is dialed in full (clockwise) down at 14X power. This doesn't seem right to me. However, if I set it to lower magnification, I have to re-adjust the elevation up (counter clockwise). Is this how scopes normally behaves in general? I am using UTG high rise scope mount because medium rise seems too low for the front lens size. Maybe this should be a separate thread..?
No.

The scope is messed up if variations in power setting cause variations in POI.

You should pull the scope and send it back to Nikon. They can check it and fix it.

Elevation of scope above bore center should not effect POI between changes in power setting.
 
#22 ·
Guys.

An idea just came to mind.

Take a gander at those links I posted.

Why don't you set up a "Challenge" here?

You could set it up to be shot with SIG rifles only, or post it in "Guns" and allow other rifles to be shot. I'd vote for the latter cuz I do not have a SIG rifle, but do what you want.

Those arfcom Challenges are great fun to shoot.

Do it!

I cooked one of them up myself {the **** thread over there}. It is easy to manage and it would really be neat to see how these rifles shoot.

What about it?
 
#23 ·
I concur with the others while I don't shoot enough (these days) I had absolutely no problem get 1" groups out of this rifle using golden tiger 762. I do regularly clean my rifles even if i don't shoot them. (OCD) I have the sig diopters and the cp1 scope. The scope nets me perfect groups for my inexperience in shooting at 100 yards firing at a 3" red circle target. I usually fire between 5 to seven shot groups and have yet to see a grouping outside of 1.5" after getting it sighted in. The diopters on the other hand I can punch out quarter sized holes at fifty yards anything beyond that my eyes suck. Give her a chance and get used to or adjust your trigger and tighter groups you shall see!!! I must also add that these groups are while benched and the rifle is steadied on a grip-pod with 3 seconds between shots as my range won't allow "rapid" fire.
 
#24 · (Edited)
My recommendation would be for the membership to set up a simple shooting test so members could demonstrate the performance of their rifles. On arfcom, this has worked quite well to support claims by some and debunk claims by others vis a vis particular rifle/ammo combinations.

This method is super helpful for those who are on the market looking at this or that rifle and wondering how well they shoot. Sort of a "public service" of sorts.

I personally do not believe this rifle averages 1.5" for 5-shot or 7-shot groups at 100 yards with Golden Tiger ammo.

I'd LOVE to be proven wrong in my assessment but seriously doubt I will be.

ETA: The whole "accuracy claim" issue is of no concern to the many guys like myself that have long experience with a large number of rifles, calibers, etc. We know the parameters of the operating systems, etc. But for newbies it is a big deal. Lots get frustrated when they see claims about rifles that they just don't see any hope of achieving themselves. There is nothing wrong or uncommon or out of the ordinary about a semiauto that produces 2 or 3 or 4 inch 5-shot groups. Anything less than 2" is superb. MOA is not that common at all, in fact, very rare overall.
 
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#26 ·
Sounds good, but it would be neat to have a sort of standard target we could all shoot. What we did on arfcom worked really well. Very little overall stuff is posted on SIG rifle performance and it would be great to make this site a centerpiece for that.

Let us non-SIG rifle shooters shoot, too! :)
 
#27 ·
I'll go read up on some info of how you guys set that up because it does sound interesting enough. I did get somewhat defensive though it was for good reason I apologize. Everyone who has researched a replacement ak or better ak i.e. the 556r, it returns all the negative reviews and the articles or videos that don't bash it lack any juicy information to base a purchase off of. They actually ceased production of this rifle recently and the are going for about 1g now instead of 1500. Its a great and accurate rifle though!
 
#28 ·
Can I play? This is a sub-moa group of four and one I shot sighting my .308 bolt gun. The four rounds in the upper left were shot to verify consistency of the round [South African Mil-Surp] before I doped [adjusted] the scope.



This is what that group came out of.



The glass is a Simmons Model 800116 - 8 X 32 44 AO Scope from the high quality optics plant in Japan in the 1980s. It is the Gold Medal version that was highly sought after by target shooters.

We now return you to our regularly scheduled 556R Accuracy thread....;)
 
#29 ·
This is exactly why I fish. It's a big ocean and I can hit it every cast.

By the way Valdemar Nice Dawg
 
#30 · (Edited)
Ready;

Set it all up and I think the guys here might have a lot of fun with it.

I went to that site but I struck out and found no posted groups of your rifle and ammo.

We have miserable conditions {cold, snowy} for shooting here now but we shoot anyhow. That is all part of it IMO. The point is to learn not just the rifle and the mechanics of shooting, but what you can do under any and all conditions. That means that MOA groups can be a sometimes thing even with a MOA rifle...and there are few true MOA semi's out there.

Does it matter?

Well, let me put it this way. Maybe.

For my work I need and want a very accurate rifle. I've shot literally thousands of varmints in the protection of my plantation and for coyote bait and truth be known, many of them, in spite of the small size of most of them, were shot with rifles hovering around and often NOT MOA capable and that is mechanical accuracy to say nothing of my own warts in pulling the trigger.

Many these days think a group here or there that sits inside a 1 inch circle makes a 1 inch rifle. Not so. But good work can be done even with rifles not approaching MOA accuracy. I have a Smith M&P15 that is a 2-2.5 inch rifle {Average of 5, 5-shot groups, 100 yards} that I've killed hundreds of squirrels with. Not impressive to post targets, but...

Then there is field shooting. If you look at the two challenges over there you will see a very accurate rifle of mine posted in the MOA challenge and the Smith in the **** challenge. I actually shoot the Smith more accurately sometimes from my favored sitting position than I do the more-mechanically accurate ArmaLite NM. My MOA Challenge groups were shot from prone with the rifle rested on my rucksack, incidentally, not from the bench with bags.

I try to stay off the bench. It does nothing for developing or maintaining field shooting skills and inculcates a lot of techniques not really duplicatable in the field which is where my shooting matters.

If a guy came on here and said; "My 556R rifle averages 2.25 inches for 5-shot groups from the bench on bags at 100 yards" I would consider that an accurate semi.

I am far, far more impressed with demonstrable "2 MOA" accuracy than I am with "1 MOA" accuracy proven with references to misplaced targets. Most guys are, I think, and that is why the Challenges were set up on arfcom. It is really interesting...and tells a lot about the internet...that , many guys posted saying they would shoot the various challenges later and post their results, and then...never did. I think we all know why. Finding a "1 MOA" keyboard and typist is far easier than finding a "2 MOA" rifle and shooter...

I still think it would be neat to have a rifle target thread, or sticky even going. Fun and educational.

Irons and scopes enters another realm. Another thread, another time.

Not all rifles have to be "MOA" to be useful, either...

My Useful NON-MOA Rifle. - AR15.COM

NOT an MOA rifle, but it works...






Ranger, thanks. He is a good dog.

Good shooting coach, too.

"Deep breath...Let half out...Squeeze, Don't Pull!".....

 
#32 ·
I can't quite go along with that...

:D

 
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#34 · (Edited)
Love my 556R its a Tupperware engine block cracker! Except for a minor stock issue I love it!
As far as being able to dissect a bench target at 600 yards don't know or care I do know it'll keep hitting a paper plate at 600 yds which works for me...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 of course it ate my spelling.
 
#35 · (Edited)
Ok guys, here's my latest range report.

Wind 5 mph..?
Tula 122 gr steel case
12x40 Mildot Nikon Prostaff
benched with wood block & sand bag at the hand guard

Yes, I think 556R @ 100 yards is capable of, if anything...

3/4" 2-3 groups
2.5"-3" 3-5 groups

Or, better with a more experienced and better shooter.

Center 6" target - sighting in @ 50 yds
Top right - sighting in @ 100 yds
Top left @ 100 yds - 5/5
Bottom right 4/4

....and yes, it was able to put 2 rounds in a row next to each other @ 100 yds at least 4 times... Maybe by luck... :) Then, it would spread out 2-2.5" left or right... But I have to admit some of it are my fault for tensing up and still getting used to the 7.62 recoil (vs. 22 cal)...
 

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#38 ·
#39 ·
That's pretty good shooting 556.

Thanks for posting.

Hangs meat on the bones of what these guns are capable of.
 
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