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How fast do you need to be?

This is a discussion on How fast do you need to be? within the Concealed Carry forums, part of the Gun Forum category; Originally Posted by 193698 Lately (and I suppose long before I arrived here) there's been lively discussions about safety vs. no safety, carrying with a ...


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Old 07-04-2020, 05:57 AM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 193698 View Post
Lately (and I suppose long before I arrived here) there's been lively discussions about safety vs. no safety, carrying with a round in the chamber or not, appendix carry vs. shooting your nuts off, why it's a good idea to train for someone trying to murder you in your car, and the proper way for a civilian to clear a room or home vs. getting himself killed.

It's all in fun. For me anyway. I'm skilled in the handling and operation of firearms and techniques in the broad topic of self-defense. I don't really care what other people do. But their points of view are still interesting to me. I do wonder sometimes if some of the posts are from people who have ever actually had someone shooting at them. Or had to shoot back. But that's not the point of this topic and in no way do I judge people who have never experienced the thrill of someone trying to kill them.

With that out of the way, here's my question:

How much time is needed to recognize a dangerous threat and act in self defense?

In other words, wherever you may be... walking down a street, driving, sitting in a diner, or similar circumstances. On average, how long is it before you observe the threat, conclude that you are in a truly dangerous situation, and need to draw your weapon and pull the trigger?

A nanosecond?
2.5 minutes?
30 seconds?
45 minutes?
That's a question with no useful answer. Too many unknown variables including the thinking ability of the carrier, perp, or both. Ever been in a place where there was no decision to make? The thrill is in not being shot, not shooting someone else. Sometimes it's just a job, other times, it just staying alive and you do what you need to do. The answers will, no doubt be interesting.
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Old 07-05-2020, 06:11 PM   #122
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Im no expert

I am NOT an expert. But from my observations of what I have, read, utubed etc etc etc. Seems like consensus is most altercations take about 2 seconds for contact.
Thats how much time you will have before an assailant (with no gun) could reach you and hit, kick, stab, or make contact with some type of hand held weapon, from an average of 7-10 yards away (seems to be consensus of most weapon related altercations closing distance), with no obstructions. So you would need to be able to put at least one round (to stop, slow assailant) on target no more than 2 seconds. Considering most people conceal carry then you would need to draw, aim, and depress trigger within 2 seconds. If assailant already has some type of gun already drawn, you are probably out of luck and will hopefully get one round into them, probably after they have already put one or more, into you. Thats seems to be why many people strongly recommend some type defensive handgun classes. To prep you for the stressful situations that you may encounter including first aid and hemorrhage control..


Quote:
Originally Posted by 193698 View Post
Lately (and I suppose long before I arrived here) there's been lively discussions about safety vs. no safety, carrying with a round in the chamber or not, appendix carry vs. shooting your nuts off, why it's a good idea to train for someone trying to murder you in your car, and the proper way for a civilian to clear a room or home vs. getting himself killed.

It's all in fun. For me anyway. I'm skilled in the handling and operation of firearms and techniques in the broad topic of self-defense. I don't really care what other people do. But their points of view are still interesting to me. I do wonder sometimes if some of the posts are from people who have ever actually had someone shooting at them. Or had to shoot back. But that's not the point of this topic and in no way do I judge people who have never experienced the thrill of someone trying to kill them.

With that out of the way, here's my question:

How much time is needed to recognize a dangerous threat and act in self defense?

In other words, wherever you may be... walking down a street, driving, sitting in a diner, or similar circumstances. On average, how long is it before you observe the threat, conclude that you are in a truly dangerous situation, and need to draw your weapon and pull the trigger?

A nanosecond?
2.5 minutes?
30 seconds?
45 minutes?
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Old 08-20-2020, 08:29 PM   #123
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iirc ex Delta Force SGM Shrek McPhee says that for most defensive situations a person should be able to draw from concealment then fire three shots into a 4-5 inch circle at 7 yards in under 3 seconds. he says that it's vital to take the time out to aim and shoot for the head
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Old 08-21-2020, 09:50 AM   #124
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It is sad that a person has preconceived notions about a subject that anything that falls outside of their parameters is not a viable option will leave once they find that the majority didn't agree with them.

I personally carry with one in the chamber and a full magazine plus a second magazine in case I either need more ammo or I have a catastrophic failure with the magazine in the gun.

There is a case where an individual was shot dead because he had an empty chamber and he didn't rack the slide, even though he had his pistol out first.
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Old 08-21-2020, 12:54 PM   #125
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I was just in a situation last week. It was a weird one though. As my worry went up my preparation went up. They guy was not armed but possibly trying to kick my door in. Started out with no gun, then went and got my gun and put in the magazine but didn't chamber a round, then finally police arrived before I had to chamber a round as that would be going condition red in my scenario. The one thing I noticed was that old age has really taken its toll on me. 30 years ago I would not have cared one bit about blowing someone away. As I had time to think and the situation was escalating slowly, I found myself not wanting to shoot the guy at all. I thought about when I would shoot him, as in advancing in the house. I even got back on the phone to the police and said can you guys hurry it up? I don't want to have to blast this guy. The officers arrived about 2 minutes later. In my personal after action review, I was amazed at how hesitant I was. This is a RADICAL change from when I was younger and would not have cared one bit if I had to blast someone. Turns out he was having mental issues.

It just really shocked me how much I have changed. I really need to get my act together as my mental skill level has really dropped. This was a GREAT wake up call even if I got a full adrenaline dump. My soul searching has begun. Changes will be made in the next couple of weeks. I will toughen myself up big time.
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Old 08-21-2020, 06:59 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spkrdctr View Post
I was just in a situation last week. It was a weird one though. As my worry went up my preparation went up. They guy was not armed but possibly trying to kick my door in. Started out with no gun, then went and got my gun and put in the magazine but didn't chamber a round, then finally police arrived before I had to chamber a round as that would be going condition red in my scenario. The one thing I noticed was that old age has really taken its toll on me. 30 years ago I would not have cared one bit about blowing someone away. As I had time to think and the situation was escalating slowly, I found myself not wanting to shoot the guy at all. I thought about when I would shoot him, as in advancing in the house. I even got back on the phone to the police and said can you guys hurry it up? I don't want to have to blast this guy. The officers arrived about 2 minutes later. In my personal after action review, I was amazed at how hesitant I was. This is a RADICAL change from when I was younger and would not have cared one bit if I had to blast someone. Turns out he was having mental issues.

It just really shocked me how much I have changed. I really need to get my act together as my mental skill level has really dropped. This was a GREAT wake up call even if I got a full adrenaline dump. My soul searching has begun. Changes will be made in the next couple of weeks. I will toughen myself up big time.
Correct me if I misunderstood but it sounds like the guy never got past the door?

If so, I would not have shot either.
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Old 08-21-2020, 10:18 PM   #127
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I don’t think he was saying he should have blown the guy away.. I took it that he was too complacent so to speak and over thinking the situation to the point he was hesitant to be prepared. I think that once you retrieve the handgun, if it isn’t ready for action that’s when you make it ready. Things happen too fast and it’s easier to unload a gun than load it before anything happens
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Old 08-21-2020, 11:07 PM   #128
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Its not the speed, it's the accuracy of placement not always speed of draw.


Not all lawman gunfighters of the old west were the fastest but they were excellent of placement over heart.
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Old 08-22-2020, 06:55 AM   #129
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To clear up the few questions, he never got past the door. That was my shoot/don't shoot criteria. Being in Florida as soon as they come in you can start blasting without ANY conversation. Is he drunk and at the wrong door? Doesn't matter in Florida. Being a cop in my past I knew what to do and how to do it. I was just surprised at my unhappiness or not wanting to go through all the hassle of shooting the guy. I even thought about the blood on the carpet/floor and what a pain in the butt it was going tobe to have to clean it all up afterwards, that's just crazy. Plus he was only armed with a cell phone.

It later turned out he was talking to the police while hammering doors. I live in a one bedroom apartment and he was hammering numerous doors while talking crazy. But normally when I was younger I would have got my gun, loaded it ready to go and not had any problems giving the guy the full magazine. I was/am surprised that I didn't feel that way. I was actually concerned about having to shoot him. That bothers me. I have always gone from zero to kill instantly with no hesitation. Here I was whining in my brain about having to blast the guy and clean up the mess.

Turns out he lived a few doors down and the police know him. Legally I could have blasted him and nothing would have been said. It was that I didn't want to blast him. I have never felt that way before when in a situation. I would have told my police trainees if you feel like that to get out of police work. It comes with the job. So, now I'm telling myself to get my head screwed on straight.

The problem is that it was slow and he wasn't armed. If he had kicked the door in right away or been armed he would have had the full mag of my M&P 9C. Then it would have been over before I could even think about it. So, I am taking corrective action.

That will be having the gun loaded at all times. I usually don't bother as I go to the range etc and don't load up afterwards. Now I will. So when I grab the gun it will always be loaded. I'm also going to start carrying all the time. I'm looking for a OWB holster for my Sig P238. I want something that holds the gun in tight to the body but is OWB. I'm too fat for IWB. I'm one obese guy.
So, that is my plan. Looking for a good holster that retains the gun very well and is tight to the body. I don't care about brand or what it is made out of.

Anyone have some ideas for a holster?
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Old 09-09-2020, 04:54 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lexie__M View Post
Its not the speed, it's the accuracy of placement not always speed of draw.


Not all lawman gunfighters of the old west were the fastest but they were excellent of placement over heart.
Both speed and accuracy are necessary. The shooter who produces first center mass or CNS impacts (with follow up rounds, when necessary) wins the fight. I'm not advocating "spray and pray," but reactive point shooting is a skill that can save your bacon in close quarters gunfighting.
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Old 09-10-2020, 10:54 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spkrdctr View Post
I was just in a situation last week. It was a weird one though. As my worry went up my preparation went up. They guy was not armed but possibly trying to kick my door in. Started out with no gun, then went and got my gun and put in the magazine but didn't chamber a round, then finally police arrived before I had to chamber a round as that would be going condition red in my scenario. The one thing I noticed was that old age has really taken its toll on me. 30 years ago I would not have cared one bit about blowing someone away. As I had time to think and the situation was escalating slowly, I found myself not wanting to shoot the guy at all. I thought about when I would shoot him, as in advancing in the house. I even got back on the phone to the police and said can you guys hurry it up? I don't want to have to blast this guy. The officers arrived about 2 minutes later. In my personal after action review, I was amazed at how hesitant I was. This is a RADICAL change from when I was younger and would not have cared one bit if I had to blast someone. Turns out he was having mental issues.

It just really shocked me how much I have changed. I really need to get my act together as my mental skill level has really dropped. This was a GREAT wake up call even if I got a full adrenaline dump. My soul searching has begun. Changes will be made in the next couple of weeks. I will toughen myself up big time.
I think its great that the situation ended up not requiring you to shoot...and just because you can doesn't mean you should (in CA if I shot someone through the door in that situation I'd be going to directly to jail).

The one thing I'll say is I don't have a weapon in the house that is intended to be used in an SD/HD situation that isn't already loaded with a round chambered. If someone's busting in my door, or trying to, I'm going to be focused on that threat...not trying to load my gun.
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Old 09-11-2020, 12:00 PM   #132
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Ok, I'm all gunned up. Got a concealed holster from Bravo Concealment for my S&W M&P 9 Compact. That is my go to gun for goes bang every time and just flat works. Very accurate too. Takes a beating and keeps on going. Secondly I have a new Fobus concealed holster for my P238. So, now I'm carrying all the time. I like the Fobus in that it has a tension adjustment screw for keeping the gun in the holster regardless of how much activity I would do. The Bravo holster does not have a tension adjustment but they will take the holster and heat it up and set it for tighter tension if I want. It seems ok now, but if it ever loosens up at all I will have them tighten it. So, a double win.
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Old 09-15-2020, 08:53 PM   #133
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Last time I checked, we are in the U.S.A. Who the heck cares what the SOP is in Israel other than to justify/support a nonsensical mode of carry?

Carrying a semi-auto. handgun without a round in the chamber is, IMHO, idiotic. It is akin to carrying an empty revolver with a loaded speedloader attached to it. Those that do (a): presume/assume that they will not only have time to rack the slide to load the pistol, but that they will (b): do it correctly under extreme pressure, and - even more importantly - (c): have two hands with which to do so. If one does not have 2 hands available, then how quickly can our Israeli Carry Mode acolyte do a one-hand weapon charging manipulation while trying to stay alive?

Bottom Line: You have to be fast enough to have survived the encounter. Just how many extra holes you acquire is up to Lady Luck, your Guardian Angel, or... The Draw.

Last edited by Skyviking; 09-15-2020 at 08:56 PM.
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