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Looking for your thoughts...AR Pistols

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Old 08-28-2020, 08:05 AM   #1
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Looking for your thoughts...AR Pistols

Have read a couple threads on "Truck/Trunk Guns" and not quite seeing the info I'm looking for.

Been thinking lately of acquiring an AR style pistol. I can see virtue in the size. Home defense, vehicle travel companion, etc. My questions revolve around caliber and maker, plus the tactical benefits of those. Not realistically envisioning any distances longer than 50-75 yards

In .38/.357 I am set. I have a 5 shot snub, a Dan Wesson w/ 6" heavy barrel and a Winchester Model 94 lever. Same ammo, multiple platforms. 0-75 yards - good to go.

I also have both a Ruger SS Ranch Rifle and a Sig 516 Patrol. So .223/5.56 is an option in an AR style pistol. 7.5" - 10" is my current thought. Sig, Springfiled Armory Saint, BG Defense (Grand Rapids MI) are a couple makers I've looked at.

I have recently transitioned to a P365 SAS, so 9mm is back into my mix. Thus a Ruger PC Charger or Sig MPX etc are intriguing.

I have a Benelli M1 for shotgun needs and as written above, a couple 223/5.56 rifles for longer range work - if ever needed.

So for compatibility of ammunition, home defense, vehicle travel, possible "wrong place at the wrong time" scenario, what are your thoughts on 9mm or .223/5.56 pistols? 0-75 yards. 9mm typically is a "blow back" system. .223/5.56 is a gas system. etc etc etc.

Thanks...
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Old 08-28-2020, 08:26 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fotog View Post
Have read a couple threads on "Truck/Trunk Guns" and not quite seeing the info I'm looking for.

Been thinking lately of acquiring an AR style pistol. I can see virtue in the size. Home defense, vehicle travel companion, etc.

Thanks...

I had a AR Pistol 5.56mm, 7.5" barrel and now I have a bullpup. Neither are maneuverable while seated with seatbelt on, just no space.

Try thinking of sitting in your vehicle with seatbelt, how manageable would a AR Pistol be ?
Maybe something much shorter like a Stribog or Scorpion would fit the bill for truck gun as it can maneuver while sitting with seatbelt on?


Also think of what you see on the news lately as people are getting stopped and many rioters attacking your vehicle at same time and you can't escape and only a few seconds to act before you are dragged out and attacked by the mob?

Maybe two high capacity pistols could be an option?
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Old 08-28-2020, 08:27 AM   #3
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This was the kit I put together a little over a year ago: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...-10-pmags.html

I used an Anderson stripped lower and basically put it together in a single afternoon. This was my first and only build.

It was all before the current environment and was just something I did on a whim. I am now glad I did so as you pointed out in your thread starter. I don't anticipate needing it, but it is nice to know I have it. I prefer 5.56 since I like the caliber and already have a full size S&W 5.56 semi-auto AR style rifle.

Have fun with your build and hope you never need the firearm for anything but pleasurable range fun.
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Old 08-28-2020, 08:29 AM   #4
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I have a 10.5" 5.56 NATO AR pistol that I pack with me on long car trips. Most of the data I have seen indicates still ~2500 ft/sec out of a ~10 inch barrel. It's still well under Michigan's 26" limit for pistols, so I possibly could have gone with an 11.5" barrel.

I build a AR pistol some time ago from junk parts on the cheap. It seemed like a legit platform, so I sold the junk one and built an extremely expensive, very light one. It's loud (of course) but comfortable to shoot, easy to transport and uses a very standard ammunition. I have a CZ Scorpion that was cheap to put together and is fun to shoot, but it's still a 9mm, so it didn't win the backpack gun competition. I don't get the appeal of PCC for a PDW. They are fun to shoot, but the size and weight don't justify still using a 9mm. I see it as a very niche thing for people that are uncomfortable with the recoil from a cartridge like 5.56.

Here (in Michigan) the benefit of an AR pistol is that with my CPL it can be legally transported loaded in a vehicle, which cannot be done legally (whether you agree or not) with a rifle or shotgun.

My recommendation would be to do the research and build what you want. Building an AR pistol is no different than building an AR. I wouldn't recommend any manufacturers, but I'd stay away from anyone using proprietary parts (like Sig) for AR pistols/rifles. There is an astonishing array of parts and pieces out there from various manufacturers and I don't see the benefit of limiting oneself to a proprietary system that may not be supported in a few years.
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Old 08-28-2020, 08:45 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lexie__M View Post
Maybe two high capacity pistols could be an option?
Doesn't seem like a great option to me. Most people can only concentrate on one target at a time, so two weapons at once is one too many. Additionally, most people shoot poorly one handed (or at least more poorly than two handed), and even poorer off handed. Utilizing such a setup, you are liable to send lead to random places you may have not intended, which is undesirable in most circumstances.

Even with two 20 round magazines, you still only have the same capacity that you could get from a single AR mag. The AR mag requires one reload, and not 2.

Additionally holding two weapons means you have no hands. If you need to exit the vehicle (because say, it's been set on fire), how do you open the door?

When we say "truck gun" I think most folks are simply talking about a weapon kept in a vehicle, not one specifically for shooting it out from a vehicle. If you have a working vehicle, it's best to drive off. If you can't, you might be better off bailing and finding safety. A vehicle is essentially a glass compartment with many avenues of entry to a determined crowd.
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Old 08-28-2020, 08:47 AM   #6
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I have a Palmetto State Armory AR Pistol. The one in this link. I have it available for HD donít use it as a vehicle gun. Itís a great shooter. I added Magpul BUIS a Romeo 5 RDS and a Juliet 4 Magnifier and a Radian Raptor Ambi charging handle. The 10.5 inch barrel makes it easy to maneuver around the house.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...165448952.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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Old 08-28-2020, 08:51 AM   #7
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Recent build:

https://sigtalk.com/guns/56341-what-...ml#post5552108

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Old 08-28-2020, 09:23 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fotog View Post
Have read a couple threads on "Truck/Trunk Guns" and not quite seeing the info I'm looking for.

Been thinking lately of acquiring an AR style pistol. I can see virtue in the size. Home defense, vehicle travel companion, etc. My questions revolve around caliber and maker, plus the tactical benefits of those. Not realistically envisioning any distances longer than 50-75 yards

In .38/.357 I am set. I have a 5 shot snub, a Dan Wesson w/ 6" heavy barrel and a Winchester Model 94 lever. Same ammo, multiple platforms. 0-75 yards - good to go.

I also have both a Ruger SS Ranch Rifle and a Sig 516 Patrol. So .223/5.56 is an option in an AR style pistol. 7.5" - 10" is my current thought. Sig, Springfiled Armory Saint, BG Defense (Grand Rapids MI) are a couple makers I've looked at.

I have recently transitioned to a P365 SAS, so 9mm is back into my mix. Thus a Ruger PC Charger or Sig MPX etc are intriguing.

I have a Benelli M1 for shotgun needs and as written above, a couple 223/5.56 rifles for longer range work - if ever needed.

So for compatibility of ammunition, home defense, vehicle travel, possible "wrong place at the wrong time" scenario, what are your thoughts on 9mm or .223/5.56 pistols? 0-75 yards. 9mm typically is a "blow back" system. .223/5.56 is a gas system. etc etc etc.

Thanks...
I think for indoor/home defense, a compact 9mm PCC/AR-based system is a very good choice because you can put a lot of rounds on target accurately and easily, and most importantly, a 9mm muzzle blast/concussion from a barrel longer than 10-12" isn't really that horrible without ear protection, especially compared to a rifle or shotgun blast, or even a 4-5" 9mm pistol barrel.

If longer ranges and outdoor area a concern then I'd at least go with a .223/5.56 and NOT something with a super-shorty barrel less than 11". A .300 Blackout AR-pistol will perform better with shorter barrels than a 5.56 if you want to keep it really compact, and there are even folding stock/buffer tube systems if you really want that to help fit it into a backpack or the like.

If you want to go with a 9mm lots of choices other than AR-platforms as well, like CZ Scorpion, Stribog and B&T.
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Old 08-28-2020, 11:01 AM   #9
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I built a decent AR9 with a PSA 8" upper.
I put it on an Areo lower and SBA3 brace with a LAW folder and feed it with Endomags.
The KVP linear comp works very well at directing noise and blast away from the shooter.

Knowing what I know now, I would have to recommend the CMMG 8" Radial Delayed Blowback barrel and BCG with their version of the Endomags.

I'm now looking for an 11.5" 5.56 upper to go with what I have now.
To be able to use the same lower for both I'll use the Vltor A5 recoil system.
Which is the extension tube, buffer and Rifle spring.
I have this setup on my carbine AR and liked how it smoothed that out a lot.

The AR9 is already using a Vltor H4 buffer and Rifle spring with a carbine tube.
I have an AR10 extension tube that is the same length as the Vltor one and will use it with a 5/8" spacer when using the 9mm upper.
Then when using the 5.56 upper I just remove the spacer and run it.
Same extension tube, buffer and spring for both calibers.
The extra 5/8" from the tube stretches it out just a bit too, which is nice when using a Pistol Brace.

I was out shooting the AR9 a couple weeks ago with a distance of 76 yards.
It's zeroed at 25 yds with a Romeo5 Predator and we were ringing my 9" plate with it at 76 yds pretty easy.
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Old 08-28-2020, 11:08 AM   #10
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I have an AR pistol in 300 AAC/blackout that I assembled/"built".

It has an 8.5 inch barrel, 7.5 inch m-lok free float handguard, spikes tactical jolly roger lower with mil spec parts kit, KAK-blade 'pistol brace'. Picatinny rails. All the good stuff.

I don't particularly care for it. It's still a big sucker. That KAK brace I have isn't particularly good. In my subjective opinion, the supersonic loads kick like hell. IIRC it will bruise you a bit if you aren't careful (or have boney shoulders... because of course you shouldered the thing ) I at one point had a SIG red dot on there but I took it off and slapped on some Ruger flip ups I had lying around.

It's plenty accurate with the red dot or with the flip up irons. I've never minded the mil spec triggers either. My issue is just the price of ammo and the uncomfortable brace. Plus, if you compare it to something like this Ruger 5.56 16" carbine with a fully collapsed stock... it's not really that much shorter.









If looking for something small and maneuverable I think going something like the CZ Scorpion, Sig MPX or any number of different choices in a slightly smaller platform would be the way to go, especially for a gun in a vehicle.

Me, personally, I stash a couple of 15 rounds magazines for my P365 in the center console and consider that good to go. Lord help me if I need more than that.
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Old 08-28-2020, 11:17 AM   #11
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Appreciate the insights. Much to digest. Reads like the 9mm has some distinct "home defense" benefits in a longer barreled (6-10") platform. While the .223/5.56 seems to be the prevailing "builds" in the AR Pistol.

Totally agree on the limitations of "inside a vehicle shooting". Hammer, posted up an article in another thread from the Integrated Skills Group - specifically dealing with these challenges and offering some sound advice - in my view. Mobility - being a key component.

Again, thank you for sharing your thoughts.
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Old 08-28-2020, 11:23 AM   #12
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Frankly, from INSIDE a vehicle my carry handgun would be my first go-to if someone were right on top of me. Just easiest to get to and deploy. And then if you could buy yourself some time and reach or exit, then the longer gun. I mean yeah, a pistol round going through glass and all, but it's going to affect anything anyway, so I would hope a handgun could at least back someone off enough to give you some options.

These are truly nightmare scenarios any way you look at it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry Hippo View Post
If looking for something small and maneuverable I think going something like the CZ Scorpion, Sig MPX or any number of different choices in a slightly smaller platform would be the way to go, especially for a gun in a vehicle.

Me, personally, I stash a couple of 15 rounds magazines for my P365 in the center console and consider that good to go. Lord help me if I need more than that.
To add to this, the good thing about something like a CZ Scorpion or an MPX or Stribog is that unlike an AR-based blowback pistol they don't need a buffer tube for cycling, so it you keep it with a folded or collapsed brace (or stock on an SBR), you can fire it that way multiple times which will help within the confines of a car. With an AR9-based gun, if it needs the buffer tube even with a folding brace/buffer tube you can get one shot off but then you have to fold it into position to cycle the rest and probably rack it back into action....AND it's now much longer and harder to maneuver in a car. As opposed to something like this, which can fire the way you see it.....


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Old 08-28-2020, 11:33 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by NorthernMichigan View Post
Here (in Michigan) the benefit of an AR pistol is that with my CPL it can be legally transported loaded in a vehicle, which cannot be done legally (whether you agree or not) with a rifle or shotgun.
An optimum benefit to me.

The 9mm vs. .223/5.56 is the question.
Great detail in the replies. The "build" specifics are valuable and much appreciated. More research to do and contemplate, but this is good stuff.
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Old 08-28-2020, 11:42 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by MoRivera View Post
Precisely what I was going to mention in this discussion.

If you are going with a pistol, get a folding stock option.

As others have rightly pointed out, dealing with a fixed stock or brace is going severely limit your range of motion and quick deploy in a vehicle.

The picture that Mo presented is preferable as you have that stock out of the way for close quarters but the stock is available for something a little further out. As for optic, I would go with something 1x to keep things simple. Capable from 7-10 yards or 40-50 yards.
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Old 08-28-2020, 11:46 AM   #15
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An optimum benefit to me.

The 9mm vs. .223/5.56 is the question.
Great detail in the replies. The "build" specifics are valuable and much appreciated. More research to do and contemplate, but this is good stuff.
Consider the ammo you have on hand as having to last a while if need be. Replacing that in any quantity is not only going to be very costly at today's prices but damn near impossible to find.

If you have a pile of 9mm or 223/556, then you have more options. If you are short on one, hang on to that for your current firearm usage and consider your larger quantity as a little more expendable. No one says you can't carry two different calibers in your vehicle.
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