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Deceptive

This is a discussion on Deceptive within the Guns forums, part of the Gun Forum category; Originally Posted by Bitter Clinger My wife and I have a deal. She won't buy me used guns and I won't buy her used underwear....


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Old 09-14-2020, 02:56 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitter Clinger View Post
My wife and I have a deal. She won't buy me used guns and I won't buy her used underwear.
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Old 09-14-2020, 03:02 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Lancer L5 AWM View Post
The 4473 allows for guns purchased as gifts...
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As long as it's a "bona fide" gift
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Old 09-14-2020, 03:11 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by incar View Post
As long as it's a "bona fide" gift
Edited for accuracy: Yes, as long as the buyer/transferee (in this case the OP's wife) doesn't accept anything of value for the "gifted" firearm to the gift recipient (in this case her husband), AND the buyer/transferee doesn't have reason to believe the intended recipient is barred from firearms purchase- it's perfectly legal.
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Last edited by Lancer L5 AWM; 09-14-2020 at 08:03 PM. Reason: Edited to correct bad info
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Old 09-14-2020, 03:35 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by suthrncop66 View Post
...Straw purchases are illegal if the receiver of the firearm cannot legally possess said firearm. Otherwise there is no foul...
Edited for accuracy: There's at least one additional way to violate the straw buyer aspect, which is what happened to a former LEO who reportedly made every effort to follow the law, but erred by accepting payment from a relative for the transferred new pistol... If I remember correctly, if the LEO hadn't accepted anything of value for the pistol, it would've just been a gift and legal, but because he accepted payment from his uncle the obama DOJ charged the officer with a straw purchase and he was convicted.

In a 5-4 ruling SCOTUS declared it didn't matter that both he and his uncle weren't prohibited by law from gun purchases- the court ruled it a straw purchase, reportedly because the officer's acceptance of payment from his uncle proved the cop bought the gun for "someone else" and for lying on the 4473 form about that specific detail.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/what...and-about-guns


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Last edited by Lancer L5 AWM; 09-14-2020 at 08:03 PM. Reason: Edited out some bad info and added new
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Old 09-14-2020, 03:39 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Bitter Clinger View Post
My wife and I have a deal. She won't buy me used guns and I won't buy her used underwear.
I had to do my share of unofficial marriage counseling as a cop, and this situation sounds to me like a dire standoff, as well as a great opportunity for an uninvited interloper. Tell her I'd be most pleased to buy her new underwear if she'll buy me used guns.

No need to thank me, you're welcome.
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Old 09-14-2020, 07:11 PM   #21
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abramski_v._United_States

Exactly where on the 4473 is there a box to check to say the gun is a gift?
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Old 09-14-2020, 07:25 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by NAZ View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abramski_v._United_States

Exactly where on the 4473 is there a box to check to say the gun is a gift?

Good memory, eye, etc., Naz... Your above comment caused me to take a look at the 4473 and refresh my memory- and you're right- there is no "gift" checkbox...

I remembered incorrectly and am wrong, and because of that I also poorly recalled what caused the LEO to be convicted of a straw purchase...

I'm deleting the bad info and reposting... I'm glad you caught that because I hate when incorrect info is posted, especially by me.

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Old 09-14-2020, 08:03 PM   #23
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A straw purchase is buying a gun for someone else (i.e. they gave someone the money to buy the gun for them) typically because they're a prohibited person.

A gift is a gift. Someone can buy someone a firearm and gift it to them providing there's no State or local laws against it.
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Old 09-15-2020, 04:27 AM   #24
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Download the May 2020 revised 4473 here.

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Attached Images
File Type: jpg 21a.jpg (69.0 KB, 18 views)

Last edited by SteveAikens; 09-15-2020 at 04:30 AM.
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Old 09-15-2020, 04:56 AM   #25
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I have bought my daughter a few guns. When I was buying the guns I told Scheels employee that I was buying the gun as a gift for my daughter. I had no problem.
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Old 09-15-2020, 05:02 AM   #26
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This is where Abramski ran afoul of the law. It was in fact a straw purchase.

Factual background

Bruce Abramski, a former Roanoke, Virginia, police officer,[6][7] offered to buy his uncle, Angel "Danny" Alvarez, a resident of Pennsylvania, a Glock 19 handgun at a police discount.[6] Agreeing, Alvarez sent Abramski a check, for $400, which stated "Glock 19 handgun" in the memo line.[6][8] Abramski proceeded to purchase the gun, and filled the required ATF Form 4473. Question 11.a. on the form asks: "Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you." Abramski's answer to this question was yes.[9] After passing the background checks, and receiving the gun, Abramski contacted a federally licensed firearms dealer (FFL) in Pennsylvania, which conducted its own background check on Alvarez[10] and then proceeded to transfer the gun to Alvarez through the FFL.[10] Completing the transaction, Abramski deposited the check and received a receipt from Alvarez. Later, Abramski was suspected of committing a bank robbery,[7] and his house was searched by Federal agents who found the receipt.[6]
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Old 09-15-2020, 05:25 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NAZ View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abramski_v._United_States

Exactly where on the 4473 is there a box to check to say the gun is a gift?
21A, its in the instructions
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Old 09-15-2020, 05:34 AM   #28
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Ironically the OP's other posts was regarding cleaning of guns lol....
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Old 09-15-2020, 08:35 AM   #29
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Thumbs up

Normally I'd say that I'll need to get myself another "new" gun to make up for my disenchantment and she'd understand. But I'd certainly nail the shop if it was indeed their deception . . . as well as getting another somewhere.
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Old 09-15-2020, 10:38 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Lancer L5 AWM View Post
The BBB isn't a governmental agency and has no power- you're better off naming the gun shop on gun forums and social media to draw attention to your situation...



I'd also consider filing a case in small claims court. Paying an attorney to send a threatening letter will also help. Contacting your state AG's office might be fruitful.



Whatever you do don't stop being the squeaky wheel about it!


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I second talking to your state AG's consumer protection office and simultaneously disputing the charge on the cc, if applicable. The AG will send some nasty letters on your behalf which may be helpful
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