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Bill Introduced To Allow Carry Permits to Cross State Lines Like Drivers License

This is a discussion on Bill Introduced To Allow Carry Permits to Cross State Lines Like Drivers License within the News forums, part of the SIG Talk category; Originally Posted by GCBHM Not exactly. As it relates to dissolving the government, that was a natural right the founders recognized in the Declaration of ...


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Old 04-13-2017, 10:59 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by GCBHM View Post
Not exactly. As it relates to dissolving the government, that was a natural right the founders recognized in the Declaration of Independence, and although it is not a matter to be taken lightly, the people to retain the right to do so and start over. That is what I referred to, not simply doing away with the Constitution so that I can do whatever I want to control the people.
We aren't discussing gov't, we are discussing the application of our constitutional right to bear arms (*<---this was worded incorrectly. I should have said our "Constitutionally recognized right to bear arms". since it was already quoted I'm not changing it, instead explaining what I meant to articulate*) and that rights protection across state lines. The answer to those that don't believe the states should act subordinate to our :Constitution would wisely argue that our fed gov't be dissolved as that would then include the enforcing powers inherent to it. Then re-establish a gov't that is sympathetic not to our Constitution but to the will of individual states regardless of whether they recognize the complete authority of the US Constitution, ironically that was supplanted by our current form of gov't.



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Actually, you're quoting the Declaration of Independence, which sounds good, but it is not the Constitution. The primary intent of the Constitution is this. First, to create a central government to deal with general matters to serve the interests of the States. Secondly, it empowers the general government to do specific things with limited powers. Lastly, it serves to restrict the general government from intruding into sovereign state affairs b/c each state is a sovereign and independent state free to govern as IT sees fit, according to the will of the people of that state (or country). What the US Constitution does NOT do is erase all state lines to create one large state over which the general government is to rule, with a president serving as the elected king. However, that is essentially what we have today simply b/c the Constitution failed to do what it was implemented to do. Why? B/c people...
I'm aware of what I'm quoting. Our declaration articulates a premise on which our Constitution was derived. Our Gov't was not established to serve the various individual interests of individual states. It was established to serve the interests of our Nation as a whole. It dissolved the previous weaker form of gov't in which the states were stronger and our federal gov't was weaker resulting in the inability of our Federal gov't to sufficiently arbitrate the conflicts between the various states. <---It seems we are history's door step again.

The states are not free to govern as it sees fit, as state governance can not conflict with our National Constitution nor properly derived federal law as outlined in A6. Our Federal Gov't does have the authority to implement laws that support it's proper operation; to protect religious liberty, free speech, taxation, raising an Army from among the various states, to use land of the various states to house said military, protection of application of our right to bear arms.......

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Old 04-13-2017, 11:00 AM   #92
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So, we need to kick butt and do some reconstruction, and undo what Lincoln started?
Well...how did Franklin put it...trees and blood, and tyrants?
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Old 04-13-2017, 11:01 AM   #93
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Only within the powers delegated in Article 1; Section 8. If the power is not found in that article then it retained by the States.
can you demonstrate how protection of our right to bear arms isn't found within the authority of our Federal Gov't?
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Old 04-13-2017, 11:08 AM   #94
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We aren't discussing gov't, we are discussing the application of our constitutional right to bear arms and that rights protection across state lines. The answer to those that don't believe the states should act subordinate to our :Constitution would wisely argue that our fed gov't be dissolved as that would then include the enforcing powers inherent to it. Then re-establish a gov't that is sympathetic not to our Constitution but to the will of individual states regardless of whether they recognize the complete authority of the US Constitution, ironically that was supplanted by our current form of gov't.
Bro...there is no "constitutional right" to bear arms. That is the point of this discussion, to raise awareness to the fact that the constitution isn't as important as it is made out to be. IT DOESN'T MATTER what the constitution says...our rights predate the Constitution, and they will live long after it dissolves. IF you can understand that then maybe you can let go of the notion that we need the federal government to protect anything.

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I'm aware of what I'm quoting. Our declaration articulates a premise on which our Constitution was derived. Our Gov't was not established to serve the various individual interests of individual states. It was established to serve the interests of our Nation as a whole. It dissolved the previous weaker form of gov't in which the states were stronger and our federal gov't was weaker resulting in the inability of our Federal gov't to sufficiently arbitrate the conflicts between the various states. <---It seems we are history's door step again.
There was no Nation created. A general government was created to serve the interests of the individual, sovereign states. The only nation that was formed was forged by force when Lincoln trashed the constitution and voided liberty. You need to understand that the States created the federal government. It did not create the states, and they did not work together to create each other. The federal government is subordinate to the States, except for the areas delegated in Article 1; Section 8 of the US Constitution. The federal government has not power or authority outside that. It really is that simple.

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The states are not free to govern as it sees fit, as state governance can not conflict with our National Constitution nor properly derived federal law as outlined in A6. Our Federal Gov't does have the authority to implement laws that support it's proper operation; to protect religious liberty, free speech, taxation, raising an Army from among the various states, to use land of the various states to house said military, protection of application of our right to bear arms.......
Yeah...they are. They were before the Constitution was written, and they did so until 1865. You simply do not understand the purpose for the Constitution, nor do you understand the purpose for the general government. It is to serve, not rule, period. It does not have the authority to protect our right to bear arms. The 2nd Amendment specifically tells it that it has no voice in the matter, at all, period. If you will, please show me the language directing the federal government to protect the right to keep and bear arms.
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Old 04-13-2017, 11:10 AM   #95
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can you demonstrate how protection of our right to bear arms isn't found within the authority of our Federal Gov't?
Yeah...read the constitution. Read the Second Amendment. Show me the language directing the federal government TO protect the right to keep and bear arms.
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Old 04-13-2017, 11:13 AM   #96
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Preamble to the Bill of Rights

"Congress OF THE United States begun and held at the City of New-York, on Wednesday the fourth of March, one thousand seven hundred and eighty nine.

THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.

RESOLVED by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, two thirds of both Houses concurring, that the following Articles be proposed to the Legislatures of the several States, as amendments to the Constitution of the United States, all, or any of which Articles, when ratified by three fourths of the said Legislatures, to be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of the said Constitution; viz.

ARTICLES in addition to, and Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America, proposed by Congress, and ratified by the Legislatures of the several States, pursuant to the fifth Article of the original Constitution."

This outlines the purpose of the Bill of Rights. Where is the language directing the federal government to protect the right to keep and bear arms? Where is the language telling it to protect any rights at all?

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Old 04-13-2017, 11:16 AM   #97
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Article [II] (Amendment 2 - Bearing Arms)

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Where is the language directing the Federal Government to protect the right to keep and bear arms? This statement very clearly tells the federal government that it shall not infringe the right of the people to keep and bear arms, but where is it telling the government to protect anything? It doesn't.
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Old 04-13-2017, 11:18 AM   #98
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Yeah...read the constitution. Read the Second Amendment. Show me the language directing the federal government TO protect the right to keep and bear arms.
Article 1 ?
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Old 04-13-2017, 11:18 AM   #99
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Article [X] (Amendment 10 - Reserved Powers)

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

What powers are delegated?


"Article I (Article 1 - Legislative)

Section 8

1: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

2: To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

3: To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

4: To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

5: To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

6: To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

7: To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

8: To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

9: To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

10: To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

11: To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

12: To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

13: To provide and maintain a Navy;

14: To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

15: To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

16: To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

17: To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;—And

18: To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."

Where is the power delegated to the federal government to protect the rights of the People?

Last edited by GCBHM; 04-13-2017 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 04-13-2017, 11:20 AM   #100
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Article [II] (Amendment 2 - Bearing Arms)

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Where is the language directing the Federal Government to protect the right to keep and bear arms? This statement very clearly tells the federal government that it shall not infringe the right of the people to keep and bear arms, but where is it telling the government to protect anything? It doesn't.
again, Article 1.
The amendments denote our natural rights, the articles infer the power to legislate based on them.
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Old 04-13-2017, 11:24 AM   #101
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18: To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."

Where is the power delegated to the federal government to protect the rights of the People?
18: To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."

are you suggesting that our Constitution recognizes our rights as Americans, but the states have the authority to usurp those rights as it wills with no intercession via our federal gov't?
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Old 04-13-2017, 11:24 AM   #102
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again, Article 1.
The amendments denote our natural rights, the articles infer the power to legislate based on them.
LOL!!! No. The articles outline responsibilities of each section of the federal government from the branches (Executive, Legislative and Judicial) to the subsections (Congress, Senate, etc.). The ONLY powers delegated to the federal government are enumerated in Section 8. As the 10th Amendment states, if the power is not delegated there, it is retained by the States.
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Old 04-13-2017, 11:33 AM   #103
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18: To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."
Did you actually read this? "To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."

It only has power vested by the Constitution. Those powers are found in Article 1; Section 8. It does not have power to make any law it wants. It was given specific boundaries.

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are you suggesting that our Constitution recognizes our rights as Americans, but the states have the authority to usurp those rights as it wills with no intercession via our federal gov't?
YES! The federal government does not have the power to override State law, except for the area specifically granted to it, BY THE STATES, found in Article 1; Section 8. IF the States pass a law that violates ITS constitution it is up to the people OF THAT STATE to deal with it. The People have two options. They can recall the legislators and repeal the law, or they can elect to leave the state, but the federal government does not have the power to make the States do anything outside the confines of the powers delegated to it. If you can show me the language I'll listen to you, but in order to understand the language better you're going to have to read the ratifying debates to gain the perspective of what was actually being deal with and done at that time.

For example, once you can grasp hold of the fact that the federal government has no power other than what you read in Article 1; Section 8 you will better understand that a lot of the power it wields today is not legitimate. For example, the NFA is totally unlawful and can be nullified by the States, but b/c everyone thinks it is for the greater good and safety of the People, the States except it...and b/c the federal government blackmails the States with tax dollars it stole from the People. Anyway, the federal government was never given the power or responsibility to protect the rights of the People. The People have the power to do that, and are supposed to!
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Old 04-13-2017, 11:36 AM   #104
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If it ever passes, it would likely have a level of standards the state carry permit would need to meet in order to pass. In KS I need to meet a higher level of requirements than if I were to apply for a "Lifetime carry license" in Indiana.
Already the federal government will not be accepting drivers licenses from Missouri, Montana, Washington state, Maine and Minnesota for ID to pass through TSA in airports as of Jan 1, 2018.
I would anticipate any national carry reciprocity would require a minimum standard for the state license to be able to be reciprocal.
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Old 04-13-2017, 11:38 AM   #105
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"Article III (Article 3 - Judicial)

Section 1

The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behaviour, and shall, at stated Times, receive for their Services, a Compensation, which shall not be diminished during their Continuance in Office.

Section 2

1: The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;—to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls;—to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;—to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;—to Controversies between two or more States;—between a State and Citizens of another State;10 —between Citizens of different States, —between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.

2: In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellateJurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.

3: The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed.

Section 3

1: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

2: The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."

Note the key phrase in bold, which references the powers delegated in A1S8.
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