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MAC Torture Test - SIG Mk25

This is a discussion on MAC Torture Test - SIG Mk25 within the SIG Sauer Pistols forums, part of the SIG Sauer Forum category; Some of my random ramblings about all of this. When talking about such torture "tests," I do feel like the striker fired guns like the ...


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Old 10-15-2016, 10:31 AM   #16
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Some of my random ramblings about all of this.

When talking about such torture "tests," I do feel like the striker fired guns like the P320 and the Glocks have an advantage over most traditional pistols because of the very small total contact surface area between the metal frame's little tabs that the slides ride on and the slide's grooves. The majority of the slide's grooves are "open" and allow the little tabs on the frame to sweep sand and dirt out of the slide's grooves.

SIG attempted to address this with the infamous "mud rails". The scallops were intended to provide space for the "crud" to be swept into by just the movement of the slide. But they didn't quite work out as well as hoped.

When you consider the length of contact between standard pistol slide rails (like on SIG's P-series or other production combat handguns) and the grooves of the slide, you realize that there is a LOT of total contact surface area between the frame and the slide (in comparison to the tabs on a striker-fired gun like the P320 and Glocks).

The gap between the two surfaces (frame rails and slide grooves) allows for particles of sand, dust or tiny organic and inorganic particulates suspended in mud to infiltrate. If enough infiltrates into that space, it "closes the gap" and creates a "mechanical lock" between the frame and slide through friction.

ryanol's comment about looseness has validity.

The fit of the slide to frame does have a lot to do with it the ability for a semi-auto to function when introducing debris such as that mentioned.

A gun that is loose in frame-to-slide fit would require a lot of larger particles (or a LOT of smaller material) to work its way into the slide's grooves to stop the movement of the slide or to introduce enough drag to rob the slide of its recoil energy and cause a failure to cycle properly.

On the other hand, an extremely tight hand-fit job between a frame and slide, say on a high-end 1911, could help reliability as well since the very tight tolerance means that only particles that are mostly microscopic could work into the space between the slide and the frame.

I don't think that anyone can draw a hard conclusion that Gun A would be better than Gun B under environmental condition X. There variables are far too great in number variety to be easily quantified.

These tests can be fun to look at and can be interesting. But only real-world testing, over time and in a wide varying array of environmental conditions, would likely influence a decision I made on a future purchase.


Either way, in my case, I doubt I'll ever be in a situation to require a gun with high level of tolerance to this type of abuse.
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Old 10-15-2016, 01:16 PM   #17
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The original Sigs tested had internal extractors and believe one mud rail when they tested the 226.
I think Sig should go back and add one mud rail for any military trials. And, don't forget the 226's were made in West Germany when the original test was done.
When the contract was renewed for the Gov't the external extractor was in play.
I have my original 226 made in West Germany that has 3 mud rails and a k coat. Never had and issue at all. I also had a 228 and put 13000 rds thru it and never did a thing to it no new springs or pins, just shot the hell out of it and it worked with one issue of the decocking spring broke at 6500 rds, however the gun still worked. I lower the hammer like it was the old 1911's. Sig over nited me a spring and that was it, never a issue of the gun working when you need it.
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Old 10-15-2016, 01:53 PM   #18
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Finally some intelligent posts on the subject that don't sound like iPhone fan boi's. thanks for the insite. There's always a logical side to things.
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Old 10-15-2016, 02:32 PM   #19
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The P226 in the XM9 trials also failed dry mud test. But like GBA said, these are cool videos to watch and its interesting to see how different guns perform.
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Old 10-15-2016, 05:31 PM   #20
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please

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleshooter474 View Post
I just took my Sig. MK-25 and threw it in the trash dumpster, and advise all Sig. MK-25 owners to do the same.
I am truly shocked at MACs testing was the item that has brought me to this sad decision.
Now i must move on in life without the handgun, i was depending to always work not matter what in came in contact with.
I just can't thank Mr. MAC for his really great video tests, i am sure he has had a lot of influence on what firearms everyone keeps and the one like me just throw them into the trash.
Anyway today i move on with my life......HELLO...HELLO...anyone reading my words?
Can you please tell me the location of that trash bin? I will send you a small reward
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Old 10-15-2016, 06:30 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by neverenuffsig View Post
Meanwhile the GLOCK did great. I think you people are just upset Sig did so terrible lol.
The Glock did do well but that last mud bin was a lot less wet than for most of the other guns he's tested. I wondered if it was because everything but the rex struggled with it.

I like MAC's vids and think he's honest and fair. FWIW he likes the P320 and loves the MCX.
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Old 02-10-2018, 09:54 AM   #22
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Wow i'm so late and missed the conversation, kind of wish I would've been here to be a part of it.
I've thought a lot about why the Arex outperformed the Sig, I think I might know the reason. If you compare say both the Arex and the Sig p229 they are almost exactly identical, the only difference being that the Arex has an "internal extractor" and the Sig has an "external extractor". I think that's why most of the handguns fail in these tests. The only Sig that I can think of that has an "internal extractor" is the old p228, I really wish MAC would test it just to see if my theory might be correct.
Sand gets packed behind the extractor and it just doesn't function like it should, with the Arex being "internal" the sand has less of a chance of packing behind the extractor.
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Old 02-10-2018, 10:02 AM   #23
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I think most guns would fail in this torture test somewhere along the lines since it is so extreme, so when a gun does well it's more the exception than the norm...a norm which should logically cover a wide range of quality guns. So Sig failing along the way isn't necessarily a knock on that gun, and not necessarily a reflection of its durability and reliability in most if not all plausible uses. Kudos to Arex for their execution of an exceptionally reliable pistol, but there's no reason to think that in normal and even extreme circumstances that it would outperform a Sig, HK, Beretta, Glock or any quality fighting pistol....or, more aptly, that those other pistols would come up short for the duty at hand.
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Old 02-10-2018, 10:25 AM   #24
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Why does everyone get all hyped up about "This gun is used by such-n-such SF unit so it's da bestest!" Oh yea, marketing.

I don't give two rips what the military uses because their budget, needs, capacity, and carry requirements are radically different from mine.
As such, none of my guns are "military issued" including my AR's that are built and setup for MY needs, not some door kickers.
Following that, torture tests are just stupid. All it takes is something simple like a piece of grit in an extractor plunger or a firing pin channel to stop a gun.
I don't care if they are testing a Sig, a Glock, or a Hi-Point, the variables are so uncontrollable and sample sizes so small that it's just a waste of time and ammo.
But the videos get views, and give the fan-boi's something to talk about.
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Old 02-10-2018, 10:46 AM   #25
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It's just stupid...It has nothing to do with reliability. It doesn't matter which gun it is. If a gun would fall in dirt...I would clean it fully. I think the main reason why the Glock doesn't jam is the same as with the AK47...The gun is constructed with much more parts that fit losely. Against other guns that are put together with much care and with more precise work so the parts fit more tighter.
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Old 02-10-2018, 10:56 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GASnBRASS View Post
Why does everyone get all hyped up about "This gun is used by such-n-such SF unit so it's da bestest!" Oh yea, marketing.

I don't give two rips what the military uses because their budget, needs, capacity, and carry requirements are radically different from mine.
As such, none of my guns are "military issued" including my AR's that are built and setup for MY needs, not some door kickers.
Following that, torture tests are just stupid. All it takes is something simple like a piece of grit in an extractor plunger or a firing pin channel to stop a gun.
I don't care if they are testing a Sig, a Glock, or a Hi-Point, the variables are so uncontrollable and sample sizes so small that it's just a waste of time and ammo.
But the videos get views, and give the fan-boi's something to talk about.
Totally respect your view but the Military actually does extensive testing on firearms before use, drop tests ect...The FBI does extensive testing on firearms, rounds ect...Just as car companies do extensive testing on their products, you could go on and on and on and talk about the companies that do testing on their products. Why would weapons be any different?
I'm old enough to know that I don't have the money, or time to buy "inferior" products, that's why I check out consumer reports before making a big purchase also.
Always gather as much information as you can and then make the best decision you can with the information at hand. That's the reason for any type of testing.
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Old 02-10-2018, 10:57 AM   #27
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In one of his videos during the last year, and about the last video I viewed, Mac picked up an old S&W .38 special, looked like a model 10 at a pawn shop . He shot it and did pretty well. But he called it a piece of junk and ranted and whined about the risk of the right hand thread ejector rod coming loose and locking up the gun.
Well in my opinion it was a pathetic video and after a couple of his outlandish torture test videos I pretty much stopped viewing the MAC.
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Old 02-10-2018, 11:03 AM   #28
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Also, I was attacking this from more of an intellectual curiosity, not a one is better than the other standpoint. If that makes sense?
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Old 02-10-2018, 11:16 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OttoLoader View Post
In one of his videos during the last year, and about the last video I viewed, Mac picked up an old S&W .38 special, looked like a model 10 at a pawn shop . He shot it and did pretty well. But he called it a piece of junk and ranted and whined about the risk of the right hand thread ejector rod coming loose and locking up the gun.
Well in my opinion it was a pathetic video and after a couple of his outlandish torture test videos I pretty much stopped viewing the MAC.
This is just "nearsighted". If my wife were to divorce me over one stupid comment or action...well then...
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Old 02-10-2018, 02:37 PM   #30
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So funny how gun owners get so steamed over these.
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