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Does your Sig shoot low?

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88K views 152 replies 99 participants last post by  Dumbdumb 
#1 · (Edited)
There seem to be a lot of these posts, and I feel like the responses are not always as precise as they could be, or the advice is good but pieced out over the thread, so I wanted to try and create a post that might get stickied.

Here is a picture of my "Sig" shooting low.


When I first bought the pistol it was worse. Generally hitting at the very bottom or below the paper. As it turns out, my sight picture was wrong.

POINT 1: The vast majority of Sigs use a "combat sight" picture. This means that the dot on your front sight post should cover your intended target.

If you are using a Center Hold
or Six O'Clock Hold Sight picture
, you will hit low.

These are incorrect sight pictures for a Sig (from the factory). They may have worked fine with whatever pistol or rifle you have/had/tried once and liked, but it is not the sight picture Sig intends for their pistols and will not work on a stock Sig.
I don't intended to debate the merits of it, just know this is how Sigs are setup from the factory. Sigs from the factory are set up to use a combat sight picture at 10 yards. Closer or farther than that and the ballistics won't match up. Once I understood what the sight picture was supposed to look like, I got "on the paper", but was still well below where I should have been. See above.



This is the same pistol, shot from a cheap plastic bench rest I purchased to test what I felt I already knew.

POINT 2: Your trigger work might not be as awesome as you had hoped. (mine sure wasn't) I have a tendency (like many people) to anticipate recoil and yank the pistol down, resulting in low shots. Perfect trigger pull is actually not common, it takes practice. If you haven't shot much before, or haven't shot much recently/for awhile, get or borrow a bench. You can purchase a bench online for about one third of what a new set of sights cost (or half of what one sight costs). Shooting from a bench will help give you a good idea how much your trigger pull is affecting your results and should be recommended by anyone before you start looking at purchasing a new set of sight(s). The below is an excellent starting point. It shows some of the many mistakes a right handed shooter can make and the error in shot placement that results.




"But my friend's P22# has #X and #X sights on it and he does fine with it! And so do I! My P22# came from the factory with #X-2 and #X-1 sights on it. Some idiot at the factory just grabbed random sights out of a bin and Sig did it wrong."

POINT 3: Sig puts particular sights on particular models/batches at the factory purposefully. Just because your new pistol doesn't match what you saw on the internet, doesn't mean it's wrong. The pistol above with the just fine bench results came with a #6 front and #6 rear sight (it happens to be a P229 Legion). A quick Google will garner for you that a P229 in 9mm should come with a #6 front and #8 rear. Or maybe a #8 front and a #8 rear, depending on the post that you find.

The fact is that Sig batch tests and picks a combo that works for the test pistols from that batch. It's likely not a perfect system. The test pistols could be poorly chosen and not representative of the rest of the batch, or the pistol you bought might not be representative of the rest of the batch. You can call Sig, give them your serial number (on recent models) and they can pull up what batch it was in and what sight combo was chosen for that batch. However, until you bench shoot it (or develop/insure perfect trigger pull) you won't know if that combo works for your pistol. I should note here that I hear customer service is hit and miss. Some people have not had luck with Sig reps. The one I spoke to was nice a easily pulled up the required info. He also offered to take the pistol back in and have them "accuracy test" it to check it. I opted to buy a bench rest myself and save the mailing time. If I had found the sights were not correct, I would politely send the pistol back to Sig and expect them to get the right sights on it (for free).


Caveats to all this mess:
If you bought a used Sig, anything is possible. On a newer used pistol, you can call Sig and see what they put on at the factory. On an older model that doesn't seem to match POA with POI, lots is possible, but bench shooting will give you a better place to start from (and end your testing with). There are good and bad posts and articles out there about sight heights and how to make adjustments. This one I found particularly informative. If you are going to pay $60 (or more) to start swapping the sights on your pistol, make sure you understand the sight heights and what you expect the swap to do. There are people out there who can give you great or poor advice, but your best bet is to make sure you understand the information yourself before you change anything.
 
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#111 ·
That would "work", but it's not a good option. Developing your own "sight picture" with misaligned sights for a single pistol is a bad idea. If you switch to another pistol, you'll be aiming high. You are better off either swapping sights to use your preferred sight picture on the pistol (expensive option) or learning to properly use the combat sight picture. While different sight pictures might use different points of aim, they all use the same iron sights alignment.
 
#113 ·
Need to add another consideration, as it also depends on how tight your group is.
If every shot is touching like a clover leaf and is low, then verify the sight picture, as Sig does use the Combat sight picture of covering the target with the front sight dot.

However when I see targets that are generally peppered and low or left, my go-to is to have the shooter try shooting with a snap cap randomly inserted into the magazine.
What you will almost always see is when they pull the trigger on the snap cap, the pistol is jerked downwards. Guaranteed...
That can vary between pistols as they have different recoil impulses, so your all steel 1911 with a 6:00 sight picture may pepper them a bit higher up with the occasional bulls eye.
Try it out.
 
This post has been deleted
#114 ·
Thats the silliest thing Ive ever heard. They dont "make" it to shoot low your just shooting it against the way it was designed.
SIG uses a combat sight picture. Self defense is combat. Adapting yourself to the combat sight picture should be easier and faster than changing sights if your a shooter.
Unless your shooting at dimes and long range it dont matter that your front sight is on the target. Ive never shot at anything so small or so far that my sight covers it. Well I have but I change weapons in those cases lol
The inch or two low difference between a combat sight picture, 6 oclock hold etc. wont matter one bit in SD shooting. Its a common thing you see with guys who came up as target shooters, hunters etc. to not care for the combat sight picture. For me I wouldnt want it any other way for SD.
Do some drills using paper plates. Then take your worst paper plate and put it over your chest center mass. If your getting em all in that paper plate then your within the parameters of SD shooting. Who cares if there are flyers, as long as they are in the paper plate you and the pistol are doing your job. Once you achieve that then use bullseye shooting to further polish your game.

Look at this target, does anyone actually believe the sight picture at 10-20 yards is gonna be the end all difference, or any difference for that matter?
Couple inches low, meh who cares.
Sky Cemetery Font Poster Signage
 
#120 ·
It appears I have more control over your emotions than you do!
Seems like your time would be better spent learning how to shoot that SIG properly!!!
Some thicker skin, some shootin lessons, a nap and a sandwich and you will be ok.
There, now Im poking at you.
If this sets you off this bad I cant wait to see your future engagements. :popcorn:
 
#122 ·
It appears I have more control over your emotions than you do!
Seems like your time would be better spent learning how to shoot that SIG properly!!!
Some thicker skin, some shootin lessons, a nap and a sandwich and you will be ok.
There, now Im poking at you.
If this sets you off this bad I cant wait to see your future engagements. :popcorn:
You forgot pacifier
 
#124 ·
I have changed my mind since my last post. Just had to much trouble remembering that my 229 liked a combat hold and swapped out my sig factory sight for, I THINK, a number 8. Used a TFO.

YMMV but I was thrilled with the change. Now all my guns behave the same or should I say .. now I behave the same with all my guns
 
#127 ·
A friend of mine, who is a good shot, purchased a P226 and couldn't hit jack snot with it and so it sat in her safe and she purchased an HK.

In 2017 I purchased the P226 from her.

When I shot it, it hit 14" low at 7 yds. The installed factory sights were #6 front and #8 rear. I had a #10 rear but needed a #9 front. A call to SIG revealed that they hadn't had any #9's for a very long time. A friend found one for me.

Once the sights were installed, the pistol is now a shooter and keeper. I did install and SRT.
 
#132 ·
8M3, I use what is called a 25-yard “6 o’clock hold”, placing the top of the front sight under the desired point of impact or, the desired point of impact on top of my front sight. At short range, the POA/POI deviation is negligible. Everyone needs to decide for themselves what sight picture works best for them and their marksmanship ability. When you can shoot those 1.5” groups at 50 yards that their handgun mfgr. says it will do (on that day, with that specific ammo and lot#), you might have revised your sight picture and zero preferences.
 
#133 ·
I purchased a 226 pro cut slide this past spring, mounted it up and tested.
6-7 inches low at 10 yds…combat hold like my other Sigs
Noticed it came with a #8 rear and a #6 front despite the website stating a #6 for both.
Sig customer service said changing to an 8 front would not help and would only change POI by 1 inch at 25 yds.
I ordered the #8 TFO sight (lots of outdoor shooting) and VOILA, problem solved.
This just backs up the fact that sometimes sig doesn’t get it right at the factory
 
#138 ·
There seem to be a lot of these posts, and I feel like the responses are not always as precise as they could be, or the advice is good but pieced out over the thread, so I wanted to try and create a post that might get stickied.

Here is a picture of my "Sig" shooting low.


When I first bought the pistol it was worse. Generally hitting at the very bottom or below the paper. As it turns out, my sight picture was wrong.

POINT 1: The vast majority of Sigs use a "combat sight" picture. This means that the dot on your front sight post should cover your intended target.

If you are using a Center Hold
or Six O'Clock Hold Sight picture
, you will hit low.

These are incorrect sight pictures for a Sig (from the factory). They may have worked fine with whatever pistol or rifle you have/had/tried once and liked, but it is not the sight picture Sig intends for their pistols and will not work on a stock Sig.
I don't intended to debate the merits of it, just know this is how Sigs are setup from the factory. Sigs from the factory are set up to use a combat sight picture at 10 yards. Closer or farther than that and the ballistics won't match up. Once I understood what the sight picture was supposed to look like, I got "on the paper", but was still well below where I should have been. See above.



This is the same pistol, shot from a cheap plastic bench rest I purchased to test what I felt I already knew.

POINT 2: Your trigger work might not be as awesome as you had hoped. (mine sure wasn't) I have a tendency (like many people) to anticipate recoil and yank the pistol down, resulting in low shots. Perfect trigger pull is actually not common, it takes practice. If you haven't shot much before, or haven't shot much recently/for awhile, get or borrow a bench. You can purchase a bench online for about one third of what a new set of sights cost (or half of what one sight costs). Shooting from a bench will help give you a good idea how much your trigger pull is affecting your results and should be recommended by anyone before you start looking at purchasing a new set of sight(s). The below is an excellent starting point. It shows some of the many mistakes a right handed shooter can make and the error in shot placement that results.




"But my friend's P22# has #X and #X sights on it and he does fine with it! And so do I! My P22# came from the factory with #X-2 and #X-1 sights on it. Some idiot at the factory just grabbed random sights out of a bin and Sig did it wrong."

POINT 3: Sig puts particular sights on particular models/batches at the factory purposefully. Just because your new pistol doesn't match what you saw on the internet, doesn't mean it's wrong. The pistol above with the just fine bench results came with a #6 front and #6 rear sight (it happens to be a P229 Legion). A quick Google will garner for you that a P229 in 9mm should come with a #6 front and #8 rear. Or maybe a #8 front and a #8 rear, depending on the post that you find.

The fact is that Sig batch tests and picks a combo that works for the test pistols from that batch. It's likely not a perfect system. The test pistols could be poorly chosen and not representative of the rest of the batch, or the pistol you bought might not be representative of the rest of the batch. You can call Sig, give them your serial number (on recent models) and they can pull up what batch it was in and what sight combo was chosen for that batch. However, until you bench shoot it (or develop/insure perfect trigger pull) you won't know if that combo works for your pistol. I should note here that I hear customer service is hit and miss. Some people have not had luck with Sig reps. The one I spoke to was nice a easily pulled up the required info. He also offered to take the pistol back in and have them "accuracy test" it to check it. I opted to buy a bench rest myself and save the mailing time. If I had found the sights were not correct, I would politely send the pistol back to Sig and expect them to get the right sights on it (for free).


Caveats to all this mess:
If you bought a used Sig, anything is possible. On a newer used pistol, you can call Sig and see what they put on at the factory. On an older model that doesn't seem to match POA with POI, lots is possible, but bench shooting will give you a better place to start from (and end your testing with). There are good and bad posts and articles out there about sight heights and how to make adjustments. This one I found particularly informative. If you are going to pay $60 (or more) to start swapping the sights on your pistol, make sure you understand the sight heights and what you expect the swap to do. There are people out there who can give you great or poor advice, but your best bet is to make sure you understand the information yourself before you change anything.
Thanks! You put a lot of work in to this and it shows! A very helpful and informative post!
 
#140 · (Edited)
I am also thinking with many shooting Striker pistols, with lighter trigger pulls and also using too much press strength on trigger. It does not take take much to press an trigger to shoot. I think jerking and overpowering the trigger while trying to get shot off while we are anticipating it. I know I shoot low with decent grouping when I am trying to be fast.. Smooth is fast, fast is smooth.
 
#146 ·
There is no magic to this. Hickock45 is not using the "SIG Combat Sight Picture". He says that he is "holding low" on the targets, even at the longer ranges until he gets out to the 80+ yard targets. Pistols are essentially short-range combat weapons. Back in the day, 1911s were required to group 5 rounds into 8" at 50 (yes, FIFTY) yards. He's been shooting at those targets a long time with various calibers and knows instinctively where to hold.When I was competing in NRA PPC, we found that using a "neck hold" at 50 yards on the B-27 target (essentially using the head as sort of a "bullseye") gave us better results and a higher "X" count. I would encourage everyone who is thinking about how to sight in their defensive handguns to read Elmer Keith's Sixguns. Unless you know the trajectory of your pistol's loading (bullet weight, velocity), you are simply guessing at your POA/POI at various ranges. You will only be certain if you shoot 3 to 5-shot groups at definite ranges using a 6 o'clock hold on a bullseye target and measure where the impacts are vs. your POA.

If your front sight is covering your desired POI at 10 or 15 yards, you will not be able to effectively engage small targets/smaller impact areas at longer ranges. Think of it this way: If you have a 6 MOA dot on your handgun, that means the dot will cover (occlude) approx. a 6" diameter circle at 100 yds., 3" at 50, and 1.5" at 25. If you have to "thread the needle" to make that life-saving shot, where will that bullet go at 50 yds. and in? Will you have the room to spare w/o hitting an innocent victim? What if your front sight entirely covers the visible portion of your target and part of someone you don't want to hit - esp. if there is movement involved and, because you are using that "combat" sight zero, you can't see it to adjust your aim accordingly?
 
#148 ·
This is sort of related! I am about to buy a German P226. It has box and papers. the box is the newer style w gray color and some stripes. My question is, the factory target is pretty bad, sprayed all over the place! I hope this shows the shooter was just off that day. Anyone else have a factory target that is bad, but the gun shoots good? I have an early p220 w blue box, the target is very good and it does shoot very well.
 
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