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Anyone Change Weapons for Winter???

This is a discussion on Anyone Change Weapons for Winter??? within the SIG Sauer Pistols forums, part of the SIG Sauer Forum category; I usually carry a P229 SAS Gen 2 in an IWB holster. When I need to carry something that's a little easier to conceal, I ...


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Old 11-10-2012, 04:24 AM   #16
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I usually carry a P229 SAS Gen 2 in an IWB holster. When I need to carry something that's a little easier to conceal, I carry either a Glock 27 or an HK P2000SK. All of them are in .40 cal.
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Old 11-10-2012, 08:03 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silversport View Post
so...what DO you carry???... ...

Bill
Oops.

2022 or LC9.
Fiocchi 124 JHP.

Sometimes but rarely anymore, a 640 w/ whatever 110-125 gr +P JHP's come to hand.
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Old 11-10-2012, 09:23 AM   #18
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no
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Old 11-10-2012, 10:52 AM   #19
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bear...your happy with .45 ACP out of that G30 (IIRC)???...standard velocity Gold Dot or what are you using...

I will admit that after nearly 30 years in LE I haven't changed for the seasons (but maybe for the mission...whether it be a search warrant or a trip to the Supermarket...

something just got me thinking that my usual .45 load (the aforementioned 230GR standard velocity) might be losing a bit out of a 3.9" SiG P245...and my G23 wanna be G32 is about the same size with 14 125GR 357 SiG cartridges on board...

Bill
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Old 11-10-2012, 11:19 AM   #20
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oh yes, the sweetest 45 i've fired for a sd/hd situation, 10+1, golden saber 180.

close to same size as a 229 or 220 compact.
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File Type: jpg vg30 220c3 229.jpg (70.0 KB, 13 views)

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Old 11-10-2012, 12:50 PM   #21
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Yes-summer P238, winter Kimber Ultra Crimson Carry. I carry the Kimber in the summer at times depends what I am wearing. Minnesota here, weather varies dramatically.
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Old 11-10-2012, 02:53 PM   #22
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Hello,

Previous to this year, I used ammo that would plug with cloth to get more penetration through clothing.

Of course, inside when folks had their coats off, the hollowpoint, usually a PDX1 or an old-style Hydra-Shok, would still expand.

Test:

From my ammunition tests archives
Saturday, Jan 22nd, 2010
3pm to 5pm, 43F +/-


Tested: Winchester 230gn PDX1, factory load
Bullet Type: Hollowpoint, bonded
Factory Claimed Velocity: 920fps
Test Weapon: Personalized/modified 1911

Yesterday I picked up some Winchester 230gn PDX1 in .45acp.


Well, the packaging is impressive…

I test ammunition before I carry it, both for function in the weapon and terminal performance.

The hollowpoint is impressive.


… wide and fairly shallow hollow point…

This bullet is reminiscent of the Black Talon, and from what I’m given to understand, is a direct descendent of that line.

But how does it perform? The FBI has selected it in .40 S&W as their primary duty round, and it was manufactured to their specifications – namely, it is bonded to better penetrate barriers, and I’m assuming a few other tweaks were made.

I dug my test box from the snow and filled it up with water jugs.


Most are familiar with my standard setup by now.

The standard setup is five, one gallon jugs filled with water with the front covered with four layers of denim.

Now, I’ve been described by some as “an excitable boy.” I will concede this point today. I forgot the fifth jug, grabbing my hearing protection and camera on the way out. I decided to shoot without the fifth jug as every .45acp hollowpoint I’ve tested to date has stopped somewhere in the fourth jug.

Big mistake. It blew through the fourth jug and departed for parts unknown – thought eh furthest it could have gotten was to the berm at the 100 yard mark. It most likely ended up in a tree, however.

So, aching from a fall down into the creek earlier when the undercut bank gave way (physical therapy said don’t just sit around, so I had to set up some 100 yard targets!), I set everything up again.


The shot…

The first jug launched off the platform, the second was hurting, the third was shredded like wheat, the fourth had a couple holes in it, and the fifth


… EPIC FAIL…

… contained the under expanded bullet, base forward.

That was disconcerting; I wonder if the FBI knows about this?

This called for another test, one without the four layers of denim in place.

The effect upon the jugs was much the same.


WIN!

The fully expanded bullet stopped in the third jug.


Better, but I was expecting the fourth jug to contain the bullet.

This was equivilant to about 9” of gelatin penetration, give or take a couple inches.


Upon comparison, you can see the unexpanded bullet did begin to open just a bit, but ran out of steam to do so.

Conclusions:

First, it hurts to fall down a bank into icy water. Don’t do it, especially if you’re recovering from an already-injured back. If you do do this, don’t conduct bullet tests afterward.

Second, the PDX1 is not any more impressive than other ammunition, and less impressive than some. It is reminiscent, to me at least, of the performance exhibited by the original Hydra-Shok 230gn loading: Expansion is good until that four layers of denim is introduced.*

However, I do like the Hydra-Shok for this reason: In a Northern Indiana winter, we normally wear thick clothing. In my part of the state, thick hunting or Carhart coats are common. I have therefore actively sought out the old style Hydra-Shok in anticipation of it clogging with clothing and providing needed penetration.

The PDX1 seems to act the same way, but it also seems to tumble. I have never seen ball or a clogged bullet blow water-filled jugs off the test bench like this did, so something was happening, anyway.

Weapon function proved one malfunction – a failure to fully extract. When I built this pistol, I left the stock extractor in there and it works well with all ammo but Winchester. I adjusted the extractor a bit tighter and my function test magazines worked flawlessly. I will, however, be ordering a new extractor!

Recoil was brusque, and muzzle flash was not evident. My practice rounds are 230gn LRN over 5.2gn BE powder (this is a bit over max listed; use with caution), and they feel very much alike. I am guessing a powder similar to Win231 was used.

I do like this round, though my “perfect” handgun round would penetrate into the fifth jug and expand to over one inch. I don’t think the PDX is worth the hype, and I wouldn’t mind if they toned down that box a bit, but it seems to work and shoot well.

Josh

*I encountered this same phenomena with Hornady TAP 230gn +P. Must be a .45acp thing.
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Old 11-10-2012, 04:15 PM   #23
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Usually the same weapon (P228) but with different ammo. 9mm 124 gr. in the summer and 147 gr. in the winter. The farther North one lives in the U.S. (aka the colder your winter), the more this makes sense.
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Old 11-10-2012, 05:08 PM   #24
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Thanks Josh.

I have shot hundreds of tests with mostly rifle bullets {we used to kill a lot of elk and deer here before the Feds decimated our herds with dumped Canadian wolves} and I know the work it takes to get the tests going. I used plywood/jug/plywood/jug...and frankly, there are VERY few pistol bullets that won't plug with a single sheet of plywood getting it started. Well, I think. Most of my testing has been done with centerfire rifle rounds of many calibers.

In addition, tho, I've shot many dozens now, tons actually, of butcher stock with service pistol rounds. Mostly...FMJ's...but what I've learned from all this is that...you can never tell what a pistol round is going to do; steel helmets, car doors, 70-250 lb sheep, 2x4's, jugs, ice blocks, sheet steel, goats, plywood, steers, whatever, I've shot them all and the service pistol round has very little energy and those who think the ".45" or whatever is going to do this or that without testing it are spitting into the wind. It might but then.....it might not.

Thanks for your efforts and for the post.

PS: Years ago, due to my experiences shooting butcher sheep, I actually gave up on the .45 and sold my 1911. I carry 9x19, but not too long ago I got another .45.........a SIG of course {!} and am enjoying shooting the caliber again.

Last edited by Valdemar; 11-10-2012 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 11-10-2012, 05:17 PM   #25
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Excellent information...thanks everyone...

Bill
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Old 11-10-2012, 05:22 PM   #26
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Josh, I'm sorry to say that I've read a lot of negative information on Winchester ammunition in general lately...it was my preferred ammunition when I'm paying the bill (maybe fond memories of the name or maybe because they were in Illinois and were helpful to me early in my career).

Glad you shared your results but sad that they are what they are...

Bill
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Old 11-10-2012, 06:11 PM   #27
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Mystro,
Nice looking kimber and spyderco
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Old 11-11-2012, 03:41 AM   #28
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Yes.

Sig P238 gets a rest and my S&W 442 .38 snubbie and my Spfld XDS .45 get a chance to see daylight.
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Old 11-11-2012, 11:27 AM   #29
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My hats off to those of you who are able to pack your favorite ccw year round, I've never been able to manage that. Unfortunately, I live in one of the hottest cities in the US in the summertime.
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Old 11-11-2012, 12:42 PM   #30
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Quote:
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Yep put the 380 away for a while. Carrying p-6 with NATO spec.Good enough for GI's, good enough for me!
Actually, if you are referring to 124 FMJ's, well...they aren't good enough for anyone.

For many years I have used service pistols with FMJ's for stock killing, dispatching of snared coyotes and killing of stock chasing dogs. For the meat critters, much of that involves head shooting lambs and mutton sheep from 70-250 lbs. They do fine for such shots, and for any shot where CNS is hit. I have had .45's glance off sheep's heads tho.

However, one must see the poor performance of FMJ's {regardless of caliber, there is no noticeable difference in performance on body shots of 9x19, .357 SIG, .45 ACP} when FMJ's are used.

For example, stock shot thru the lungs with FMJ's will run for over 6 minutes demonstrating no discomfort or even effect and would keep going if not brought down with spine or head shots. I've seen these failures regardless if 9 or .45 is used and knowing that gave up on the .45 years ago.

Military use of FMJ's involves criteria outside the pervue of the civilian CCW "carrier". I would never advise anyone to carry FMJ's based on my experience with them on many dozens of living critters.

Last edited by Valdemar; 11-11-2012 at 12:48 PM.
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