This is a discussion on P245 within the SIG Sauer Pistols forums, part of the SIG Sauer Forum category; Picked this gun up today at my local shop. Gun is in extremely good shape and the night sights are dated 2004 . Although this ...
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|01-14-2011, 12:18 PM||#1|
Picked this gun up today at my local shop. Gun is in extremely good shape and the night sights are dated 2004 . Although this gun was never very popular, I owned one years ago and kind of liked it. From the markings on the gun, I assume that it was fabricated in Germany and assembled in the US. Thus, no German proof marks. If anyone has any good or bad experiences with this model, please let me know.
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|01-14-2011, 01:45 PM||#4|
Well, so far so good. Being too lazy to research it myself, can anyone answer the following questions:
1) What are the differences between the P220 Carry and the P245.
2) Does anyone make a magazine base plate that will extend the finger rest another 1/4 inch or so.
3) Will aftermarket grips for the P220 Carry fit the P245 (if they even make them).
|01-14-2011, 01:55 PM||#5|
1.) A 220 carry has a full length grip and utilizes the full size magazines.
2.) Not that I know of, but it would not surprise me.
3.) No, the grip sizes are different. I believe Hogue makes some wooden P245 grips and I saw some on eBay (also wood) made by a company outside of the US. None of them were cheap though.
Note, the 220 compact is the same size as the 245. However, I do not believe anyone makes grips for it.
Also, this may be of interest to you... it allows use of the full size p220 mags in a 245 or 220 compact: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=941914
|01-14-2011, 02:01 PM||#6|
Hate to be a pain, but really want to know. Just left the Sig website and now know the differences between the Compact and Carry (which I obviously should have done before I posted).
Question I really meant to ask. What are the differences between the P220 Compact and the P245?
|01-14-2011, 02:03 PM||#7|
As far as I know, not much of anything. I have an SAS Gen 2 P220 Compact with a couple of bells and whistles (SRT, ect) but other than that...
|01-14-2011, 02:43 PM||#8|
Join Date: Dec 2010
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The 245 has a folded carbon steel slide and the 220 Compact has a milled stainless steel slide.
The 245 has no tail and no rail, The 220 compact often has a tail, or a rail. Some now are available with no tail or rail.
The 220 Compact has a slightly extended magazine base plate that provides for a better grip for some indiviuals. I am odd in that I actually prefer the 245 base plate over the 220 Compact base plates.
Both models can use the same grips.
Holsters will depend on the rail option.
This is all that I can think of at the moment.
|01-14-2011, 03:01 PM||#9|
Thanks for the quick responses. These are the answers I was looking for. The slightly extended baseplate on the Compact mag and the adapter for the full size mag may be the answers I was looking for.
|01-14-2011, 04:20 PM||#10|
You'd have to double check with Sigarms customer support of absolute confirmation, based on the SN, but I believe that the P245 was made and assembled entirely in Germany. The United States is not one of the C.I.P. "States" (reads country) that require proof marks on the barrel for sale to individual consumers. Proof marks are also not required for sales to military, nor police forces. So, even though it is lacking proof marks, it is probably all German.
Someone can kick in if they know this is off beat, but what little I have talked with Sig Sauer about such things, it should hold true.
|01-15-2011, 01:00 PM||#11|
This is always an interesting area in my opinion. Due to the number of various markings on German manufactured guns there is always room for speculation. What we do know for certain is the German Proof Law of 1891, which required all assembled German firearms to be sent to one of the various proof houses (Ulm, Kiel, etc) for proof firing. They were then normally stamped with the familiar eagle/N and the antler proof house mark on the slide, frame, and barrel. If it was manufactured and assembled in Germany, it will have these proof marks.
The area that draws the most speculation are the military/LE guns. Even old military Walthers will show the prewar Eagle/N proof mark or the Eagle/Swaztika proof mark, along with various proof and acceptance marks of different military and political organizations.
Parts do not have to be proofed to be sent to the US. The slide on my gun says "Made in Germany", but without the correct proof marks (eagle/N, antler) on the slide, frame, and barrel, I believe it was assembled in the US, and definitely not proofed as an assembled gun in Germany.
None of which makes the gun any more, or less, valuable to me. I just find these discussions interesting and educational. Thanks.
|01-15-2011, 02:30 PM||#12|
Well, I'll update some info I found, FWIW. I have a Sig SP2022 made in April 2009. German frame with serial number as well as serial number on barrel and serial number on slide, even though it says "Exeter NH" on the slide. I called Sig Arms about this and was first asked the serial number. I gave them that info and they told me it was made and assembled in Germany. There are no German proof marks on the barrel, which I noted to them. They said it didn't matter. The U.S. sales to both civilian and government agencies do not require the C.I.P. proofing that some of the European "states" do, namely Germany, France, Italy, Spain and a total of 14 I believe I was told. Those countries require the German proof for sale to regular consumers. Sales to military or Law Enforcement, such as the French Police, do not require the "proof" mark.
As I was told by Sig Sauer, the Exeter made/assembled pistols do not require but one serial number on the frame. Whereas the German made weapons will nearly always have a serial number on the barrel, slide and frame as well, and especially if all 3 serial numbers matched, it was made in Germany. Even those of Swiss lower frames would be made in Germany irregardless of the proofing, if exported for sale in The United States. More info can be found here about it, as well as the participating 14 member States as of 2008. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.I.P.
col132, I believe your pistol was made and assembled in Germany. You certainly have more "proof" (pardon the pun) than I do, and they were going off the triple serial number date and actually SN of this particular pistol.
Now, as I was told, there were a lot of imported Sig Sauer pistols imported into the U.S. after they had been taken out of commission by various agencies in Europe and those would most generally had a proof mark someplace on them. I handled a used Sig Sauer P229 today in .40 caliber and only on the barrel was a circle P mark found, but elsewhere were the serial number and, of course, made in Germany.
|01-16-2011, 04:08 AM||#13|
Thanks for the info. I think we're in agreement that the "Made in Germany" and the triple serial numbers really don't mean much in regards to whether the pistol was assembled in Germany as a complete pistol or not, or that parts such as slides, barrels, and frames need to be proofed prior to being sent to the US for assembly. Below is an excerpt from the website you noted (excellent, by the way). As I read it, Germany's current system of proofing (Proof Law of 1891) is accepted among the members of the CIP, so that they don't exhibit the CIP proof mark. Only firearms being exempted are LE and Military.
Small arms manufacturers and importers within the C.I.P. member countries are obliged to request one of the accredited Proof Houses to perform the proofing of all arms they manufacture or import. No small arm can be put on the market in any of the C.I.P. member states without prior successful proofing in an accredited proof house according to the C.I.P. decisions.
After the proof test and if successful, two or three proof marks are always applied to the main (highly stressed) parts of the arm, namely the barrel, the chamber (when not part of the barrel) and the locking mechanism. A serial number indicating the year of proofing is also marked on these parts. In case a firearm was voluntary successfully tested at a higher than the normally required proof-test pressure superior proof marks are applied on the relevant parts.
Only after that, the arm is released to the manufacturer or importer who can sell it or deliver it, if already sold.
I guess what I am saying is that German Law requires all firearms assembled in Germany to be proofed. Their proofing system is accepted by the CIP states. If not, they would be proofed by the CIP. Although the US has no proofing system, since Germany does, German assembled guns imported into the US will have the German proofs. American assembled guns, such as the P229, even though made with some German parts have never required a German proof. The following is an excerpt from a Sig Sauer collector living in Switzerland:
"Made in Germany" or "DE" only means that the origin of the marked part was Germany. Not that the entire pistol was made or assembled there. Germany has a proof law. All complete pistols made in Germany, regardless if it stays in Germany or if it's going to be exported must be proof fired. That's an an official act conducted from a Government run proof house.
When the pistol passes the test it will be sealed. This seal is the proof mark. The proof mark set is an Eagle over N, the sign of the proof house and the date, the pistol was tested. People refer to it as date code also.
If these signs are on the pistol, plus an additional eagle over N on the frame and the slide, then it's assembled in Germany. The absence of the proof mark indicate, that the pistol was assembled elsewhere, either in the USA or years ago, in Switzerland.
Some pistols show incomplete proof signs. These pistols are assemblies using parts of several pistols.
The triple serial number is NOT an indicator that the pistol was made in Germany. I do have such a sample in my collection with "Made in Germany" all over it, plus the Exeter address on the slide plus "triple" serial numbers, but no German proof marks. This pistol was assembled in the US with import parts made in Germany and then shipped to Switzerland where it got the additional serial numbers on the slide and the barrel.
If you want to have pistol really made and assembled in Germany, proof marks must be checked first.
I'm not saying that we should believe this guy, or that all employees at Sig are the sharpest knives in the drawer. That's what makes for interesting debate and part of the fun of hunting for that elusive "one of a kind".
|01-16-2011, 08:24 AM||#15|
Very interesting read, Col132. Adding to the mix of iteresting facts is that Sig Sauer SP2022, the "pro" line or at least the "pro" named series is actually not made by Sig Sauer, but by Sauer in Germany. A complete read of the facts concerning the Sigarms Pro series and what I am talking about is at this very interesesting link I stumbled across. http://www.cybershooters.org/dgca/sig_pro_sp2009.htm What he is saying in this link is that Sauer was owned by the Swiss conglomerate S.I.G., who, in the middle of 2000 sold off the arms division to a private investors group called "Swiss Arms" , who have allowed each branch of the arms division to operates as a separate companies. Therefore, although SIG has nothing to do with them anymore, the US branch is still called Sig Arms and the name of the pistol still has SIG in it, because when it came out (pro series SP2009) in 1999, SIG still owned "Sauer". And actually their 40S&W model came out in the middle of 1998. Early Sig Pro frames, the first 50,000, were made in Switzerland, But after Swiss Arms took over the tooling was moved to the Sauer plant in Germany. I didn't "copy and paste" this informations but borrowed heavily on the context of the writer at the website, so if you find it interesting, (I DID), it's worth reading about it at the above link.
I just wondered if you called Sig Arms at Exeter USA 603-772-2302 and talked to customer support and gave them your serial number if they could or could not verify if it was assembled in U.S. or Germany?
It's always intereting to read the history of things. Even though your's and my pistols are different and may certainly have been made at different times and places, the fact does remain that because companies in the arms manufacturing business got their heads together at some point, we have some excellent designed and sturdy, as well as accurate pistols.
As an aside, at the winery where I work we bottle wine for other smaller wineries, just use the same wine we bottle and label, but put their label on it. What is funny is when someone visits the winery and talk about how our wine is better than Warner Vineyards, and we appreciate thier compliment, but know that they don't even make wine, not one drop. They had the winery license grandfathered in long ago, and when they sold tanks and machinery for bottling wine, they contracted with us to make their wine for them. I have cousins in Wisconsin that settled there long ago and married into our family that have the Sprecher name. There is even a Sprecher beer in Milwaukee WI. Sprechers hail from Switzerland. Now I'm drifting....
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